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Labour byelection "victories"

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Hrolf The Ganger 16 Feb 24 9.59pm
Originally posted by Matov I agree. And maybe why, and I am still very hesitant about my logic around this so be gentle in your response, but I look at the surge in the Right in Europe and wonder if we might be better off being back in the maelstrom with it i.e rejoining an EU in which the likes of the AfD and so on are gaining ground. That perhaps a Pan-European approach might be the way forward. However, more than happy to be slated on this because it still feels so odd but part of me cannot help but think that we on the Right are perhaps still to immersed in 20th century notions of what nationalism truly means. But this is a Work in Progress for me so my logic, even in my own mind, still a little bit foggy. I'm just not sure what mechanisms within Europe would influence our democracy more than on the outside. Being in Europe surely only leads to less democracy and easier ways to attack 'wrong think'. The world is already shrinking, and political ideas spread across borders far more easily than at any time. Unless you can show a concrete way that rejoining manifests a united right wing European movement, then I'm not for going back.
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Hrolf The Ganger

16 Feb 24 9.59pm

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Originally posted by Matov

I agree. And maybe why, and I am still very hesitant about my logic around this so be gentle in your response, but I look at the surge in the Right in Europe and wonder if we might be better off being back in the maelstrom with it i.e rejoining an EU in which the likes of the AfD and so on are gaining ground. That perhaps a Pan-European approach might be the way forward.

However, more than happy to be slated on this because it still feels so odd but part of me cannot help but think that we on the Right are perhaps still to immersed in 20th century notions of what nationalism truly means. But this is a Work in Progress for me so my logic, even in my own mind, still a little bit foggy.

I'm just not sure what mechanisms within Europe would influence our democracy more than on the outside.
Being in Europe surely only leads to less democracy and easier ways to attack 'wrong think'.
The world is already shrinking, and political ideas spread across borders far more easily than at any time.

Unless you can show a concrete way that rejoining manifests a united right wing European movement, then I'm not for going back.

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HKOwen Hong Kong 17 Feb 24 12.43am
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow The number of sick people waiting 12 hours or more for a hospital bed is 3000 times higher than when the Conservatives took power. The chart seems to show the percentage of people on the waiting list who wait 12 hours or more. The chart seems to show the percentage has gone from 150% 50 300%, how is that 3000 times higher? If the number of people waiting when the figure was 150% was 150 the the base number is 100 ( 100 x 150% = 150 ) If the percentage goes to 300% then the number of people waiting is 300.( assuming the base number is same ) An increase from 150% to 300% is a doubling If the number went up 3000 times per the post the number would be 300,000. Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.
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HKOwen

Hong Kong 17 Feb 24 12.43am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

The number of sick people waiting 12 hours or more for a hospital bed is 3000 times higher than when the Conservatives took power.

The chart seems to show the percentage of people on the waiting list who wait 12 hours or more.

The chart seems to show the percentage has gone from 150% 50 300%, how is that 3000 times higher?

If the number of people waiting when the figure was 150% was 150 the the base number is 100 ( 100 x 150% = 150 )

If the percentage goes to 300% then the number of people waiting is 300.( assuming the base number is same )

An increase from 150% to 300% is a doubling

If the number went up 3000 times per the post the number would be 300,000.

Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

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Matov 17 Feb 24 7.05am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Unless you can show a concrete way that rejoining manifests a united right wing European movement, then I'm not for going back. And therein lays the dilemma. Suspect it will happen but we could be decades away from it, and probably beyond my life time. Leaving us with perhaps only the notion of 'Riding the Tiger' as the only practical/rational option. As I grow older, I become more convinced that the meaning of life is about planting trees whose fruits we will never get to enjoy. And perhaps that is the way forward in politics. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

17 Feb 24 7.05am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Unless you can show a concrete way that rejoining manifests a united right wing European movement, then I'm not for going back.

And therein lays the dilemma. Suspect it will happen but we could be decades away from it, and probably beyond my life time. Leaving us with perhaps only the notion of 'Riding the Tiger' as the only practical/rational option.

As I grow older, I become more convinced that the meaning of life is about planting trees whose fruits we will never get to enjoy. And perhaps that is the way forward in politics.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Stirlingsays 17 Feb 24 7.46am
Originally posted by Matov And therein lays the dilemma. Suspect it will happen but we could be decades away from it, and probably beyond my life time. Leaving us with perhaps only the notion of 'Riding the Tiger' as the only practical/rational option. As I grow older, I become more convinced that the meaning of life is about planting trees whose fruits we will never get to enjoy. And perhaps that is the way forward in politics. Both the elites of the boomer and Gen X (my generation) generations have been vampiric on their following generations....in the boomer's case in start contrast to previous generations to them. The blame is multifactored...nihilism, feminism (destruction of the family) the general decline of social conservatism means that essentially the emergence of hyper individualism creates the present 'me, me, me' as the promoted focus rather than the future of your kin, your nation. The planting trees metaphor should be how society runs and is age old wisdom for how the older should regard the emerging generation. It ensures societal decline doesn't result. However, we are not led by those people. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2024 7.51am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

17 Feb 24 7.46am

Originally posted by Matov

As I grow older, I become more convinced that the meaning of life is about planting trees whose fruits we will never get to enjoy. And perhaps that is the way forward in politics.

Both the elites of the boomer and Gen X (my generation) generations have been vampiric on their following generations....in the boomer's case in start contrast to previous generations to them.

The blame is multifactored...nihilism, feminism (destruction of the family) the general decline of social conservatism means that essentially the emergence of hyper individualism creates the present 'me, me, me' as the promoted focus rather than the future of your kin, your nation.

The planting trees metaphor should be how society runs and is age old wisdom for how the older should regard the emerging generation. It ensures societal decline doesn't result.

However, we are not led by those people.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2024 7.51am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 17 Feb 24 8.17am
Originally posted by HKOwen The chart seems to show the percentage of people on the waiting list who wait 12 hours or more. The chart seems to show the percentage has gone from 150% 50 300%, how is that 3000 times higher? If the number of people waiting when the figure was 150% was 150 the the base number is 100 ( 100 x 150% = 150 ) If the percentage goes to 300% then the number of people waiting is 300.( assuming the base number is same ) An increase from 150% to 300% is a doubling If the number went up 3000 times per the post the number would be 300,000. The chart is separate to the stat I quoted.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 17 Feb 24 8.17am

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Originally posted by HKOwen

The chart seems to show the percentage of people on the waiting list who wait 12 hours or more.

The chart seems to show the percentage has gone from 150% 50 300%, how is that 3000 times higher?

If the number of people waiting when the figure was 150% was 150 the the base number is 100 ( 100 x 150% = 150 )

If the percentage goes to 300% then the number of people waiting is 300.( assuming the base number is same )

An increase from 150% to 300% is a doubling

If the number went up 3000 times per the post the number would be 300,000.

The chart is separate to the stat I quoted.

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JRW2 Dulwich 17 Feb 24 9.25am
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow The number of sick people waiting 12 hours or more for a hospital bed is 3000 times higher than when the Conservatives took power. And in the same period spending by the Dept. of Health and Soc. Security has risen by 39% in real terms. In 22/23 the department spent £182bn - a staggering £5000 million a day. It's as wasteful and inefficient as it's always been - like other publicly "run" activities. Thank heavens for the Thatcher denationalisation programme.
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JRW2

Dulwich 17 Feb 24 9.25am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

The number of sick people waiting 12 hours or more for a hospital bed is 3000 times higher than when the Conservatives took power.

And in the same period spending by the Dept. of Health and Soc. Security has risen by 39% in real terms. In 22/23 the department spent £182bn - a staggering £5000 million a day. It's as wasteful and inefficient as it's always been - like other publicly "run" activities. Thank heavens for the Thatcher denationalisation programme.

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JRW2 Dulwich 17 Feb 24 9.39am
Originally posted by JRW2 And in the same period spending by the Dept. of Health and Soc. Security has risen by 39% in real terms. In 22/23 the department spent £182bn - a staggering £5000 million a day. It's as wasteful and inefficient as it's always been - like other publicly "run" activities. Thank heavens for the Thatcher denationalisation programme. Correction: £500 million.
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JRW2

Dulwich 17 Feb 24 9.39am

Originally posted by JRW2

Correction: £500 million.

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HKOwen Hong Kong 17 Feb 24 9.47am
Originally posted by JRW2 And in the same period spending by the Dept. of Health and Soc. Security has risen by 39% in real terms. In 22/23 the department spent £182bn - a staggering £5000 million a day. It's as wasteful and inefficient as it's always been - like other publicly "run" activities. Thank heavens for the Thatcher denationalisation programme. Labour's PFI scheme was an expensive disaster. Someone has to get hold of waste in the NHS, disjointed procurement and non essential positions like diversity being the place to start Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.
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HKOwen

Hong Kong 17 Feb 24 9.47am

Originally posted by JRW2

Labour's PFI scheme was an expensive disaster. Someone has to get hold of waste in the NHS, disjointed procurement and non essential positions like diversity being the place to start

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Matov 17 Feb 24 9.54am
Originally posted by HKOwen Labour's PFI scheme was an expensive disaster. Someone has to get hold of waste in the NHS, disjointed procurement and non essential positions like diversity being the place to start But who? We literally have a collective management culture in public service that strives to stifle any and every attempt at making the cut of changes required. Even during the worst of Covid, when they were forced to bring in the people who run Special Forces operation to help with the planning because they were the only ones in Whitehall with the kind of 'can-do' ethos required, it took direct intervention from cabinet level, with the threat of immediate sackings, before the wider civil service started to play ball. The rot is that deep that we simply lack the quality of people running things to make any kind of meaningful change. One of the things that annoy me about my fellow travellers on the Right is this refrain about the competency crisis being caused by the consequences of DEI policies. The compentency crisis is caused by the majority white public 'service' management classes who bought this s* in to play in the first place. White s*-libs are our primary enemy. And the ones who need dealing with first. If we don't get rid of that rot, its all meaningless. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

17 Feb 24 9.54am

Originally posted by HKOwen

Labour's PFI scheme was an expensive disaster. Someone has to get hold of waste in the NHS, disjointed procurement and non essential positions like diversity being the place to start

But who? We literally have a collective management culture in public service that strives to stifle any and every attempt at making the cut of changes required.

Even during the worst of Covid, when they were forced to bring in the people who run Special Forces operation to help with the planning because they were the only ones in Whitehall with the kind of 'can-do' ethos required, it took direct intervention from cabinet level, with the threat of immediate sackings, before the wider civil service started to play ball.

The rot is that deep that we simply lack the quality of people running things to make any kind of meaningful change.

One of the things that annoy me about my fellow travellers on the Right is this refrain about the competency crisis being caused by the consequences of DEI policies. The compentency crisis is caused by the majority white public 'service' management classes who bought this s*** in to play in the first place.

White s***-libs are our primary enemy. And the ones who need dealing with first. If we don't get rid of that rot, its all meaningless.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Hrolf The Ganger 17 Feb 24 9.59am
Originally posted by Matov And therein lays the dilemma. Suspect it will happen but we could be decades away from it, and probably beyond my life time. Leaving us with perhaps only the notion of 'Riding the Tiger' as the only practical/rational option. As I grow older, I become more convinced that the meaning of life is about planting trees whose fruits we will never get to enjoy. And perhaps that is the way forward in politics. I think one has to accept that we are travelling through a brief moment in history, and that most of what will happen to humanity, providing it survives, will occur after we are long gone. Even those that leave a mark in their lifetime will never see the ultimate outcome of their contributions. Most of us will contribute our genes to the future, and perhaps with that, a tiny piece of who we were. We can dabble in politics and curse those that misuse their power over us, but ultimately we need to enjoy our brief lives and embrace the little things. There really is nothing bigger.
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Hrolf The Ganger

17 Feb 24 9.59am

Originally posted by Matov

As I grow older, I become more convinced that the meaning of life is about planting trees whose fruits we will never get to enjoy. And perhaps that is the way forward in politics.

I think one has to accept that we are travelling through a brief moment in history, and that most of what will happen to humanity, providing it survives, will occur after we are long gone.
Even those that leave a mark in their lifetime will never see the ultimate outcome of their contributions. Most of us will contribute our genes to the future, and perhaps with that, a tiny piece of who we were.

We can dabble in politics and curse those that misuse their power over us, but ultimately we need to enjoy our brief lives and embrace the little things. There really is nothing bigger.

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 17 Feb 24 12.19pm
Originally posted by beak You will have a Mountain to climb sorting that out. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 17 Feb 24 12.19pm

Originally posted by beak

You will have a Mountain to climb sorting that out.

Red and Blue Army!

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The groover Danbury 17 Feb 24 1.36pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow The number of sick people waiting 12 hours or more for a hospital bed is 3000 times higher than when the Conservatives took power. Was Diane Abbot your math teacher? This is simply not true. In the middle of Labours last period in charge my mum (RIP Mum) had a serious issue. She called me in the morning and I got her an ambulance at 7am. We were playing liverpool in the FACup and I had everyone's tickets. So my wife and daughter sat with her in A & E, I would take over when I got back. Got back at 6.15pm. She still hadn't been seen and was on a trolley in the corridor. She was seen about 10.30PM and got a bed at 1am Sunday. Some 18 hours later. She had an emergency op next morning. She was mistakenly amber stickered (see below). Even so I would have expected her to be seen much sooner that that. A few years ago I was taken ill at work. Within 20 minutes of arriving at A & E I was seen and was on the emergency op wing awaiting an op within an hour. Hospital A & E use a traffic light system, and have done so for many years. Red, Amber, Green. If you are green stickered expect a long wait. Yes its bad now, very bad. But the idea that under labour everything was rosy is not true. The other reason wait times have increased since labours last term are the number of health tourists we saw when we were still in the EU. Especially in London. And I used to work in Hospitals all over the south east. So I saw it with my own eyes and talked to NHS staff. So the idea that its all down to the evil tories is BS
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The groover

Danbury 17 Feb 24 1.36pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

The number of sick people waiting 12 hours or more for a hospital bed is 3000 times higher than when the Conservatives took power.

Was Diane Abbot your math teacher?

This is simply not true. In the middle of Labours last period in charge my mum (RIP Mum) had a serious issue. She called me in the morning and I got her an ambulance at 7am. We were playing liverpool in the FACup and I had everyone's tickets. So my wife and daughter sat with her in A & E, I would take over when I got back.

Got back at 6.15pm. She still hadn't been seen and was on a trolley in the corridor. She was seen about 10.30PM and got a bed at 1am Sunday. Some 18 hours later.

She had an emergency op next morning. She was mistakenly amber stickered (see below). Even so I would have expected her to be seen much sooner that that.

A few years ago I was taken ill at work. Within 20 minutes of arriving at A & E I was seen and was on the emergency op wing awaiting an op within an hour.

Hospital A & E use a traffic light system, and have done so for many years. Red, Amber, Green. If you are green stickered expect a long wait.

Yes its bad now, very bad. But the idea that under labour everything was rosy is not true.

The other reason wait times have increased since labours last term are the number of health tourists we saw when we were still in the EU. Especially in London. And I used to work in Hospitals all over the south east. So I saw it with my own eyes and talked to NHS staff.

So the idea that its all down to the evil tories is BS

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