The far right today….

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The far right today….

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Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 12 Nov 23 4.06pm
Originally posted by inflikted Speaking as someone with a master's degree in politics who studied radical political theory, I can tell you that is extremely oversimplified and limited view of it. Far Right politics involves highly performative nationalism, ostracising those deemed as "other" in a "them vs us" mentality, extreme social conservatism, desire for homogeny and hostility towards freedom of speech and protest if it opposes your views. So basically the SNP… hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing.
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Behind Enemy Lines

Sussex 12 Nov 23 4.06pm

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Originally posted by inflikted

Speaking as someone with a master's degree in politics who studied radical political theory, I can tell you that is extremely oversimplified and limited view of it. Far Right politics involves highly performative nationalism, ostracising those deemed as "other" in a "them vs us" mentality, extreme social conservatism, desire for homogeny and hostility towards freedom of speech and protest if it opposes your views.

So basically the SNP…

hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing.

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Matov 12 Nov 23 4.13pm
Originally posted by inflikted Well before the Taliban returned and banned them all, there were several left wing parties in Afghanistan including the progressive Watan Party who were Muslim secularists, believing in a separation of church and state so people can practice Islam without letting it influence policy. Utter baloney. The entire point of Islam is that it covers every aspect of its believer's lives. You cannot have a 'secular' version of Islam. An utter contradiction in terms. Just the actual word Islam means total submission. What I was looking for was more say a comparison with what is known as 'liberation theology' which is an aspect of Catholicism, critiqued as being left-leaning, that has a certain hold/cachet/controversy in South America especially, much to the annoyance of the Vatican. But just your use of 'The Christian Right' tells me you are a twonk already. If you want to play, you will have to up your game me thinks. Happy to give you a chance but already not impressed. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

12 Nov 23 4.13pm

Originally posted by inflikted

Well before the Taliban returned and banned them all, there were several left wing parties in Afghanistan including the progressive Watan Party who were Muslim secularists, believing in a separation of church and state so people can practice Islam without letting it influence policy.

Utter baloney. The entire point of Islam is that it covers every aspect of its believer's lives.

You cannot have a 'secular' version of Islam. An utter contradiction in terms. Just the actual word Islam means total submission.

What I was looking for was more say a comparison with what is known as 'liberation theology' which is an aspect of Catholicism, critiqued as being left-leaning, that has a certain hold/cachet/controversy in South America especially, much to the annoyance of the Vatican.

But just your use of 'The Christian Right' tells me you are a twonk already. If you want to play, you will have to up your game me thinks. Happy to give you a chance but already not impressed.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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inflikted 12 Nov 23 4.18pm
Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines So basically the SNP… Their version of nationalism is different. Nationalism in the context of independence advocates is a desire for national recognition, compared to the nationalism of people likevthe EDL or MAGA is the belief that one's country is infallible and superior to all others - but only if they are in control. One of the annoying things about the language of politics is that terms have different meanings depending on context because different groups try to appropriate it for their own means. Look at libertarianism. In reality it is a far left ideology created by French philosopher Joseph Déjacque, as a branch of anarcho-communism. However, in the mid-20th century the American right started co-opting the term for themselves. Milkshakes Against Fascism
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inflikted

12 Nov 23 4.18pm

Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines

So basically the SNP…

Their version of nationalism is different. Nationalism in the context of independence advocates is a desire for national recognition, compared to the nationalism of people likevthe EDL or MAGA is the belief that one's country is infallible and superior to all others - but only if they are in control.

One of the annoying things about the language of politics is that terms have different meanings depending on context because different groups try to appropriate it for their own means. Look at libertarianism. In reality it is a far left ideology created by French philosopher Joseph Déjacque, as a branch of anarcho-communism. However, in the mid-20th century the American right started co-opting the term for themselves.

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inflikted 12 Nov 23 4.21pm
Originally posted by Matov Utter baloney. The entire point of Islam is that it covers every aspect of its believer's lives. You cannot have a 'secular' version of Islam. An utter contradiction in terms. Just the actual word Islam means total submission. What I was looking for was more say a comparison with what is known as 'liberation theology' which is an aspect of Catholicism, critiqued as being left-leaning, that has a certain hold/cachet/controversy in South America especially, much to the annoyance of the Vatican. But just your use of 'The Christian Right' tells me you are a twonk already. If you want to play, you will have to up your game me thinks. Happy to give you a chance but already not impressed. I suggest reading "Islam and the Secular State" by Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im then. With regards to Muslim schools of though relating to equality and Liberal thought, Islamic modernism is a good starting point as an attempt to unify Western cultural changes with Islam, for example, the Farahi movement in India. The Anti-Capitalist Muslims in Türkiye argue that the Qur'an actively advocate for socialism and equality and that right wing Muslim are deliberately misinterpreting it. Edited by inflikted (12 Nov 2023 4.37pm) Milkshakes Against Fascism
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inflikted

12 Nov 23 4.21pm

Originally posted by Matov

Utter baloney. The entire point of Islam is that it covers every aspect of its believer's lives.

You cannot have a 'secular' version of Islam. An utter contradiction in terms. Just the actual word Islam means total submission.

But just your use of 'The Christian Right' tells me you are a twonk already. If you want to play, you will have to up your game me thinks. Happy to give you a chance but already not impressed.

I suggest reading "Islam and the Secular State" by Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im then.

With regards to Muslim schools of though relating to equality and Liberal thought, Islamic modernism is a good starting point as an attempt to unify Western cultural changes with Islam, for example, the Farahi movement in India. The Anti-Capitalist Muslims in Türkiye argue that the Qur'an actively advocate for socialism and equality and that right wing Muslim are deliberately misinterpreting it.

Edited by inflikted (12 Nov 2023 4.37pm)

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Hrolf The Ganger 12 Nov 23 4.27pm
Originally posted by inflikted Obviously I'm singling out the far right, that's the topic of this thread in case you haven't noticed. A poor excuse for blatant bias from someone who began by stating their credentials for being knowledgeable.
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Hrolf The Ganger

12 Nov 23 4.27pm

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Originally posted by inflikted

Obviously I'm singling out the far right, that's the topic of this thread in case you haven't noticed.

A poor excuse for blatant bias from someone who began by stating their credentials for being knowledgeable.

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Matov 12 Nov 23 4.33pm
Originally posted by inflikted I suggest reading "Islam and the Secular State" by Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im then. Why? It will be nothing other than a lefties wet dream. Written for the sort of idiot who displays a 'Queers for Palestine' banner. Islam, by its very core definition, cannot be secular. There is no equivalent of 'Mark 12 -17' in Islam. The Q'uarn encourages ALL followers of Islam to live in Islamic controlled states. And if followers are 'forced' to live in non Islamic majority nations then they are obliged to follow the rules of that state, up until a point but essentially this comes with specific limitations. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

12 Nov 23 4.33pm

Originally posted by inflikted

I suggest reading "Islam and the Secular State" by Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im then.

Why? It will be nothing other than a lefties wet dream. Written for the sort of idiot who displays a 'Queers for Palestine' banner.

Islam, by its very core definition, cannot be secular. There is no equivalent of 'Mark 12 -17' in Islam.

The Q'uarn encourages ALL followers of Islam to live in Islamic controlled states. And if followers are 'forced' to live in non Islamic majority nations then they are obliged to follow the rules of that state, up until a point but essentially this comes with specific limitations.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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inflikted 12 Nov 23 4.38pm
Originally posted by Matov Why? It will be nothing other than a lefties wet dream. Written for the sort of idiot who displays a 'Queers for Palestine' banner. Islam, by its very core definition, cannot be secular. There is no equivalent of 'Mark 12 -17' in Islam. The Q'uarn encourages ALL followers of Islam to live in Islamic controlled states. And if followers are 'forced' to live in non Islamic majority nations then they are obliged to follow the rules of that state, up until a point but essentially this comes with specific limitations. Refusing to accept something is real because you refuse to even acknowledge the evidence of its existence means there is no point having this argument. Also the Qur'an specifically states "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) so that argument falls flat. It may be what fundamentalists claim but the Qur'an contradicts that. Edited by inflikted (12 Nov 2023 4.42pm) Milkshakes Against Fascism
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inflikted

12 Nov 23 4.38pm

Originally posted by Matov

Why? It will be nothing other than a lefties wet dream. Written for the sort of idiot who displays a 'Queers for Palestine' banner.

Islam, by its very core definition, cannot be secular. There is no equivalent of 'Mark 12 -17' in Islam.

Refusing to accept something is real because you refuse to even acknowledge the evidence of its existence means there is no point having this argument.

Also the Qur'an specifically states "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) so that argument falls flat. It may be what fundamentalists claim but the Qur'an contradicts that.

Edited by inflikted (12 Nov 2023 4.42pm)

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Matov 12 Nov 23 4.48pm
Originally posted by inflikted Refusing to accept something is real because you refuse to even acknowledge the evidence of its existence means there is no point having this argument. Also the Qur'an specifically states "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) so that argument falls flat. It may be what fundamentalists claim but the Qur'an contradicts that. Edited by inflikted (12 Nov 2023 4.42pm) Unless you are born into it. Do you really want to get into about what happens to Apostates in Islam? Or girls who want to marry people of other faiths? And lets not even go there with the Gays. Christians and Jews can live in Islamic nations but have to pay a special tax for the privilege along with being subjected to all kinds of restrictions (for example in the Ottoman Empire only Muslims could own horses). But certainly cannot try and convert others (primarily a Christian issue than one for Jews). Anybody else is a pagan and therefore, deemed not even human. Is that the kind of lack of compulsion you are talking about? "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

12 Nov 23 4.48pm

Originally posted by inflikted

Refusing to accept something is real because you refuse to even acknowledge the evidence of its existence means there is no point having this argument.

Also the Qur'an specifically states "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) so that argument falls flat. It may be what fundamentalists claim but the Qur'an contradicts that.

Edited by inflikted (12 Nov 2023 4.42pm)

Unless you are born into it.

Do you really want to get into about what happens to Apostates in Islam? Or girls who want to marry people of other faiths? And lets not even go there with the Gays.

Christians and Jews can live in Islamic nations but have to pay a special tax for the privilege along with being subjected to all kinds of restrictions (for example in the Ottoman Empire only Muslims could own horses). But certainly cannot try and convert others (primarily a Christian issue than one for Jews).

Anybody else is a pagan and therefore, deemed not even human. Is that the kind of lack of compulsion you are talking about?

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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inflikted 12 Nov 23 4.53pm
Originally posted by Matov Unless you are born into it. Do you really want to get into about what happens to Apostates in Islam? Or girls who want to marry people of other faiths? And lets not even go there with the Gays. Christians and Jews can live in Islamic nations but have to pay a special tax for the privilege along with being subjected to all kinds of restrictions (for example in the Ottoman Empire only Muslims could own horses). But certainly cannot try and convert others (primarily a Christian issue than one for Jews). Anybody else is a pagan and therefore, deemed not even human. Is that the kind of lack of compulsion you are talking about? Again, liberal and modernist Muslims argue against the death penalty for apostasy using the very verse "there is no compulsion in religion" as their argument. Just because it's a relatively new movement doesn't mean it doesn't count or isn't gathering momentum. Only 1% of Kazakhs, a secular Muslim majority country, support the death penalty for apostasy. Edited by inflikted (12 Nov 2023 4.56pm) Milkshakes Against Fascism
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inflikted

12 Nov 23 4.53pm

Originally posted by Matov

Unless you are born into it.

Do you really want to get into about what happens to Apostates in Islam? Or girls who want to marry people of other faiths? And lets not even go there with the Gays.

Anybody else is a pagan and therefore, deemed not even human. Is that the kind of lack of compulsion you are talking about?

Again, liberal and modernist Muslims argue against the death penalty for apostasy using the very verse "there is no compulsion in religion" as their argument. Just because it's a relatively new movement doesn't mean it doesn't count or isn't gathering momentum. Only 1% of Kazakhs, a secular Muslim majority country, support the death penalty for apostasy.

Edited by inflikted (12 Nov 2023 4.56pm)

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 12 Nov 23 5.00pm
Originally posted by inflikted Their version of nationalism is different. Nationalism in the context of independence advocates is a desire for national recognition, compared to the nationalism of people likevthe EDL or MAGA is the belief that one's country is infallible and superior to all others - but only if they are in control. One of the annoying things about the language of politics is that terms have different meanings depending on context because different groups try to appropriate it for their own means. Look at libertarianism. In reality it is a far left ideology created by French philosopher Joseph Déjacque, as a branch of anarcho-communism. However, in the mid-20th century the American right started co-opting the term for themselves. So exactly why the Catalan leaders needed to be kept in prison by Spain and the EU. They were released recently I believe. No doubt, suitably chagrined. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 12 Nov 23 5.00pm

Originally posted by inflikted

So exactly why the Catalan leaders needed to be kept in prison by Spain and the EU. They were released recently I believe. No doubt, suitably chagrined.

Red and Blue Army!

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inflikted 12 Nov 23 5.11pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC So exactly why the Catalan leaders needed to be kept in prison by Spain and the EU. They were released recently I believe. No doubt, suitably chagrined. More or less. Catalan nationalists want recognition for an independent Catalonia whereas Spanish nationalists believe the current Spanish borders are infallible and absolute (unless you mention Gibraltar or Moroccan territory they still occupy but that's a different debate for a different time). Same as Taiwanese nationalists vs Chinese nationalists. Milkshakes Against Fascism
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inflikted

12 Nov 23 5.11pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

So exactly why the Catalan leaders needed to be kept in prison by Spain and the EU. They were released recently I believe. No doubt, suitably chagrined.

More or less. Catalan nationalists want recognition for an independent Catalonia whereas Spanish nationalists believe the current Spanish borders are infallible and absolute (unless you mention Gibraltar or Moroccan territory they still occupy but that's a different debate for a different time). Same as Taiwanese nationalists vs Chinese nationalists.

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Matov 12 Nov 23 5.13pm
Originally posted by inflikted Again, liberal and modernist Muslims argue against the death penalty for apostasy using the very verse "there is no compulsion in religion" as their argument. Edited by inflikted (12 Nov 2023 4.56pm) At the very best, 'liberal' Muslim clerics make the argument that an apostate can be spared but only if they don't make a fuss about it and certainly don't try to persuade others. Essentially stop believing but don't tell anybody. Thats it. The most liberal and modern version. Do you agree with that? Or do you think people should be able to try and persuade others to denounce their faith? "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

12 Nov 23 5.13pm

Originally posted by inflikted

Again, liberal and modernist Muslims argue against the death penalty for apostasy using the very verse "there is no compulsion in religion" as their argument.
Edited by inflikted (12 Nov 2023 4.56pm)

At the very best, 'liberal' Muslim clerics make the argument that an apostate can be spared but only if they don't make a fuss about it and certainly don't try to persuade others. Essentially stop believing but don't tell anybody.

Thats it. The most liberal and modern version. Do you agree with that? Or do you think people should be able to try and persuade others to denounce their faith?

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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