What mistakes did the LFB make in regard to their set protocols?
I know for a fact that firefighters arriving at the scene knew that it was a hopeless job but still risked their lives to try and save others.
Saying otherwise is pc bollox.

experts are often wrong, and so are opinionated people with no first hand access to the facts, for example I'd rather trust an ex-army judge spending years gathering evidence against one of the most powerful institutions in the country - with the use of lethal force at their disposal - to a HOL poster, I hope that doesn't make me a snob

This whole tragedy is going to continue to be painful for a lot of people for a long time to come.

For me this is about the regulations and their abuse.

Response teams are beyond reproach.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Nov 2019 9.45pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Why does there have to be blame, why not just a lesson learnt from a terrible tragedy and action taken to avoid a repeat.

Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

Finally some sence.
Individuals wont be prosecuted if they give oral evidence.
Not companies or corporations.
This enables actual 'workers' to enlighten the board on what they thought at the time.
Hopefully the truth of why it was so bad will now be allowed to be heard.

I hadn't seen this thread before, however I have a vested interest in the quality of products being used in construction.

I prepare specifications for door fittings to large construction projects such as office blocks, hospitals, hotels and blocks of flats. Many of the doors that need my fittings are fire doors.

Here's a common sequence of events that happens on a regular basis:

1) Architect approaches me for a fully compliant door by door schedule of fittings.

2) I compile the schedule ensuring all hinges, door closers, locks, handles, panic hardware etc all comply with British and European standards, and are Certifire approved and tested. All intumescents are allowed for, which ensures that fire and smoke can't get through any gaps between the door and frame for a period of either 30 or 60 minutes usually.

3) The architect approves the schedule and the project goes out to tender.

4) A main contractor is appointed. They issue my schedule to a sub-contractor who then gets a quote from me to supply the fittings.

5) The sub-contractor phones me to say that in their opinion they think it's over-specified and that they hadn't allowed that much in their price to the main contractor. They then ask me to substitute the items that I have specified with cheaper alternatives. I refuse to do this based usually on safety issues, and also due to the fact that I have already done a lot of work to get where we are now.

6) The sub-contractor then approaches my competitors with my schedule/quote and asks them to give him a cost saving. Invariably they will do it, albeit with inferior products that sometimes don't fully conform to the required standards.

7) Competitor supplies sub-contractor, and alternative products are fitted.

8 ) Architect is informed that the schedule they have approved has not been adhered to. Nine times out of ten they don't give a toss.

Having said all this, it has improved slightly since Grenfell, but is still being done on a daily basis.

My guess (and it's only a guess) is this is what might have happened with the cladding.

Edited by martin2412 (26 Feb 2020 9.53pm)