Oxbridge here we come!

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Hrolf The Ganger 21 Jan 19 3.22pm
Originally posted by Matov It was an open day. She was interested in starting off the process to sit the entrance test but recieved such mixed messages from her school that it put her off. She still has 5 offers from Russel Group Universities so no harm done but the message from Oxford was that they were desperate for more state sector kids to come there, and were willing to take a tolerant view of less than steller GCSE results (my kid got straight A's and A* so no issue there) when viewed against an average for the school. If my kid gets straight A's at A levels then she might defer Uni for a year and apply to Oxford but they will be despite her schoo, not because of it. But the kids had to apply and their schools needed to support them. That is the bigger issue. We made a huge mistake in encouraging our child to stay on at her schools 6th form and will not be doing so with our second but Oxford could not have been more honest about desperately wanting to attract kids from the state sector. Edited by Matov (21 Jan 2019 3.05pm) This is why I'm not sure what this story is all about. Anyone can apply to either university with the necessary grades. One of my daughter's friends went to Cambridge and she was from an average background. She had the grades. What puts people off applying is the impression that they won't fit into an environment of privilege and elitism.
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Hrolf The Ganger

21 Jan 19 3.22pm

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Originally posted by Matov

It was an open day. She was interested in starting off the process to sit the entrance test but recieved such mixed messages from her school that it put her off. She still has 5 offers from Russel Group Universities so no harm done but the message from Oxford was that they were desperate for more state sector kids to come there, and were willing to take a tolerant view of less than steller GCSE results (my kid got straight A's and A* so no issue there) when viewed against an average for the school. If my kid gets straight A's at A levels then she might defer Uni for a year and apply to Oxford but they will be despite her schoo, not because of it.

But the kids had to apply and their schools needed to support them. That is the bigger issue. We made a huge mistake in encouraging our child to stay on at her schools 6th form and will not be doing so with our second but Oxford could not have been more honest about desperately wanting to attract kids from the state sector.

Edited by Matov (21 Jan 2019 3.05pm)

This is why I'm not sure what this story is all about.

Anyone can apply to either university with the necessary grades. One of my daughter's friends went to Cambridge and she was from an average background. She had the grades.
What puts people off applying is the impression that they won't fit into an environment of privilege and elitism.

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chris123 hove actually 21 Jan 19 3.26pm
Originally posted by Matov It was an open day. She was interested in starting off the process to sit the entrance test but recieved such mixed messages from her school that it put her off. She still has 5 offers from Russel Group Universities so no harm done but the message from Oxford was that they were desperate for more state sector kids to come there, and were willing to take a tolerant view of less than steller GCSE results (my kid got straight A's and A* so no issue there) when viewed against an average for the school. If my kid gets straight A's at A levels then she might defer Uni for a year and apply to Oxford but they will be despite her schoo, not because of it. But the kids had to apply and their schools needed to support them. That is the bigger issue. We made a huge mistake in encouraging our child to stay on at her schools 6th form and will not be doing so with our second but Oxford could not have been more honest about desperately wanting to attract kids from the state sector. Edited by Matov (21 Jan 2019 3.05pm) Well if the school aren't being positive I'm surprised frankly, you need to get the school to register your child for the test as it's outside of the UCAS process.
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chris123

hove actually 21 Jan 19 3.26pm

Originally posted by Matov

Edited by Matov (21 Jan 2019 3.05pm)

Well if the school aren't being positive I'm surprised frankly, you need to get the school to register your child for the test as it's outside of the UCAS process.

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Matov 22 Jan 19 9.16pm
Originally posted by chris123 Well if the school aren't being positive I'm surprised frankly, you need to get the school to register your child for the test as it's outside of the UCAS process. I was surprised by the attitude but we made a mistake in pressurising her to go to the sixth form, despite her own wishes to go to college. Really felt let down by the school but we learn and move on. She still might apply because she really liked the course, and was not overly bothered about the whole 'Oxbridge' thing. Being honest, it was me who really fell in love with it all but she still has 5 offers from good Universities so no harm done. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

22 Jan 19 9.16pm

Originally posted by chris123

Well if the school aren't being positive I'm surprised frankly, you need to get the school to register your child for the test as it's outside of the UCAS process.

I was surprised by the attitude but we made a mistake in pressurising her to go to the sixth form, despite her own wishes to go to college. Really felt let down by the school but we learn and move on. She still might apply because she really liked the course, and was not overly bothered about the whole 'Oxbridge' thing. Being honest, it was me who really fell in love with it all but she still has 5 offers from good Universities so no harm done.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Badger11 Beckenham 23 Jan 19 12.00pm
Originally posted by Matov I was surprised by the attitude but we made a mistake in pressurising her to go to the sixth form, despite her own wishes to go to college. Really felt let down by the school but we learn and move on. She still might apply because she really liked the course, and was not overly bothered about the whole 'Oxbridge' thing. Being honest, it was me who really fell in love with it all but she still has 5 offers from good Universities so no harm done. Good luck to her. I made a similar mistake in staying on in the 6th form rather than going to college. As I have posted previously my school was rubbish and didn't really have a 6th form. To make matters worse I had some baggage which certain teachers liked to remind me of. I resented being treated like a child when I was 17 /18 so it didn't end well for me, my fault of course. In hindsight unless the school has a great 6th form I would recommend college because of the advantage that you leave your baggage behind and are treated like a young adult. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 23 Jan 19 12.00pm

Originally posted by Matov

I was surprised by the attitude but we made a mistake in pressurising her to go to the sixth form, despite her own wishes to go to college. Really felt let down by the school but we learn and move on. She still might apply because she really liked the course, and was not overly bothered about the whole 'Oxbridge' thing. Being honest, it was me who really fell in love with it all but she still has 5 offers from good Universities so no harm done.

Good luck to her.

I made a similar mistake in staying on in the 6th form rather than going to college. As I have posted previously my school was rubbish and didn't really have a 6th form. To make matters worse I had some baggage which certain teachers liked to remind me of. I resented being treated like a child when I was 17 /18 so it didn't end well for me, my fault of course.

In hindsight unless the school has a great 6th form I would recommend college because of the advantage that you leave your baggage behind and are treated like a young adult.

One more point

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Stirlingsays 23 Jan 19 12.31pm
Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig Sterling... Merit is partly about what you deserve, based on the definition I gave and fairly wide recognition of the word. So a meritocracy is based on what you deserve. And it is fair to get what you deserve. Why is that a construct by me? Because you are basing what someone 'deserves' from merit away from pure ability. That's why it's your construct and not the meaning of merit. To put it bluntly the word 'merit' has no connection at all to what you or others may perceive as 'social justice'. In my view you are connecting the two for ideological reasons. Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig A golfer who's never had coaching but regularly makes par after learning to play in the garden using a stick and a tennis ball deserves more investment in his game -- in my view-- than the one who does the same but got coached one on one from the age of 4 with all the best equipment. Investment in lower performing communities by the tax payer has been going on for a long time. I've seen a lot of this as a secondary school teacher. While I think it has become too ideological...principally because alot of the people at the coalface hold your view personally I don't have much in the way of objections to the idea in its basic form.....well the idea without the political aftertaste that is. However, pure meritocracy does not care where its talent comes from it cares about what the result is. Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig If I was Golf England, looking for the next superstar, I know which one I'd invest in. I'd instinctively think somebody who achieved a lot with so little was the better bet. Look, within the UK system the most talented at the lower levels make it.....So I have an issue with the premise to begin with. The cream rises, the difference is not with the most talented but actually with those with average ability who aren't pushed.....and the problem there is mostly with their home environments and not with the education system. What is important is that the cream has the opportunity to rise if it wishes to.....That's the single most important thing....and we live within a society that enables that. Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig And as for your footballing analogy...again, I would look at natural ability if I were a manager. Player 1 who's been coached for thousands of hours and is roughly the same as player 2, who hasn't...I would invest a hell of lot of time in player 2 because I'd think "f*** me, he grew up on the streets, never got coached, and is doing this already". Ian Wright is an example. Raw but with far more potential than many established pros who probably got into clubs from a very young age. He had loads of flaws in his game, and on many levels was missing key techniques...but he was worth the investment. I care about direction of travel in an individual. If you think that's a class judgement, then I would strongly disagree. I think it's meritocratic to look at a starting point because it speaks to potential. Yes, I think you are making class judgements. I come from a council estate myself and I regard this idea that coming from a lower point actually means more to an end result isn't accurate. Football is a working class game that has hundreds of thousands of players.....most of them aren't wealthy and all of the footballers who make it for a significant amount of time aren't there without fully deserving it. Ian Wright was either a late developer, didn't take it seriously until late or was missed when he was younger.....there is no privilege aspect to choosing footballers or his success or failure. We would agree that talent must always have a pathway to emerge from the working class...Ability must always have a pathway because it benefits all of us ..and I'd also agree that the middle and higher classes shouldn't be allowed to automatically suck up all the opportunities.....because that's cronyism and not pure meritocracy. However, beyond that I don't really think we are speaking the same language on meritocracy. Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jan 2019 12.41pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

23 Jan 19 12.31pm

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

Sterling...

Merit is partly about what you deserve, based on the definition I gave and fairly wide recognition of the word. So a meritocracy is based on what you deserve. And it is fair to get what you deserve. Why is that a construct by me?

Because you are basing what someone 'deserves' from merit away from pure ability. That's why it's your construct and not the meaning of merit.

To put it bluntly the word 'merit' has no connection at all to what you or others may perceive as 'social justice'.

In my view you are connecting the two for ideological reasons.

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

A golfer who's never had coaching but regularly makes par after learning to play in the garden using a stick and a tennis ball deserves more investment in his game -- in my view-- than the one who does the same but got coached one on one from the age of 4 with all the best equipment.

Investment in lower performing communities by the tax payer has been going on for a long time. I've seen a lot of this as a secondary school teacher. While I think it has become too ideological...principally because alot of the people at the coalface hold your view personally I don't have much in the way of objections to the idea in its basic form.....well the idea without the political aftertaste that is.

However, pure meritocracy does not care where its talent comes from it cares about what the result is.

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

If I was Golf England, looking for the next superstar, I know which one I'd invest in.

I'd instinctively think somebody who achieved a lot with so little was the better bet.

Look, within the UK system the most talented at the lower levels make it.....So I have an issue with the premise to begin with.

The cream rises, the difference is not with the most talented but actually with those with average ability who aren't pushed.....and the problem there is mostly with their home environments and not with the education system.

What is important is that the cream has the opportunity to rise if it wishes to.....That's the single most important thing....and we live within a society that enables that.

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

And as for your footballing analogy...again, I would look at natural ability if I were a manager. Player 1 who's been coached for thousands of hours and is roughly the same as player 2, who hasn't...I would invest a hell of lot of time in player 2 because I'd think "f*** me, he grew up on the streets, never got coached, and is doing this already".

Ian Wright is an example. Raw but with far more potential than many established pros who probably got into clubs from a very young age. He had loads of flaws in his game, and on many levels was missing key techniques...but he was worth the investment.

I care about direction of travel in an individual. If you think that's a class judgement, then I would strongly disagree. I think it's meritocratic to look at a starting point because it speaks to potential.

Yes, I think you are making class judgements. I come from a council estate myself and I regard this idea that coming from a lower point actually means more to an end result isn't accurate.

Football is a working class game that has hundreds of thousands of players.....most of them aren't wealthy and all of the footballers who make it for a significant amount of time aren't there without fully deserving it.

Ian Wright was either a late developer, didn't take it seriously until late or was missed when he was younger.....there is no privilege aspect to choosing footballers or his success or failure.

We would agree that talent must always have a pathway to emerge from the working class...Ability must always have a pathway because it benefits all of us ..and I'd also agree that the middle and higher classes shouldn't be allowed to automatically suck up all the opportunities.....because that's cronyism and not pure meritocracy.

However, beyond that I don't really think we are speaking the same language on meritocracy.

Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jan 2019 12.41pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steve1984 23 Jan 19 5.57pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays ..the difference is not with the most talented but actually with those with average ability who aren't pushed.....and the problem there is mostly with their home environments and not with the education system. Ain't that the truth. One of the main reasons I moved abroad was so I could send my three kids to a school that unlike mine didn't attempt to instill in them a sense of entitlement or alternatively one that forced them to share a classroom with kids whose parents didn't value education. Of course it's possible to find a half decent secondary schools in the UK but it's a bit of lottery and didn't want to gamble with their futures. Not sure how true it is generally but in the "white van man" working class suburb where we live, the local school is on OFSTED's fail list. I met one of the teachers out walking my dog recently and he voiced his frustration at meeting parents who don't see any point in encouraging their kids do do well at school "'cos they're gonna join me in my plumbing business and do well for themselves just like me." Conversely the inner city academy 3 miles down the road is doing quite well academically and there's hardly a white face to be seen. Edited by steve1984 (23 Jan 2019 5.58pm)
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steve1984 23 Jan 19 5.57pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

..the difference is not with the most talented but actually with those with average ability who aren't pushed.....and the problem there is mostly with their home environments and not with the education system.

Ain't that the truth. One of the main reasons I moved abroad was so I could send my three kids to a school that unlike mine didn't attempt to instill in them a sense of entitlement or alternatively one that forced them to share a classroom with kids whose parents didn't value education.

Of course it's possible to find a half decent secondary schools in the UK but it's a bit of lottery and didn't want to gamble with their futures.

Not sure how true it is generally but in the "white van man" working class suburb where we live, the local school is on OFSTED's fail list. I met one of the teachers out walking my dog recently and he voiced his frustration at meeting parents who don't see any point in encouraging their kids do do well at school "'cos they're gonna join me in my plumbing business and do well for themselves just like me." Conversely the inner city academy 3 miles down the road is doing quite well academically and there's hardly a white face to be seen.

Edited by steve1984 (23 Jan 2019 5.58pm)

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Ginger Pubic Wig Wickham de L'Ouest 23 Jan 19 6.37pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Yes, I think you are making class judgements. I come from a council estate myself and I regard this idea that coming from a lower point actually means more to an end result isn't accurate. Football is a working class game that has hundreds of thousands of players.....most of them aren't wealthy and all of the footballers who make it for a significant amount of time aren't there without fully deserving it. Ian Wright was either a late developer, didn't take it seriously until late or was missed when he was younger.....there is no privilege aspect to choosing footballers or his success or failure. We would agree that talent must always have a pathway to emerge from the working class...Ability must always have a pathway because it benefits all of us ..and I'd also agree that the middle and higher classes shouldn't be allowed to automatically suck up all the opportunities.....because that's cronyism and not pure meritocracy. However, beyond that I don't really think we are speaking the same language on meritocracy. Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jan 2019 12.41pm) Fair dues. Time we both moved on...but believe me, I'm anything but an ideologue of any stripe. I'm always willing to be convinced. If you want to live in a world full of kindness, respect and love, try to show these qualities.
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Ginger Pubic Wig

Wickham de L'Ouest 23 Jan 19 6.37pm

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Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yes, I think you are making class judgements. I come from a council estate myself and I regard this idea that coming from a lower point actually means more to an end result isn't accurate.

Ian Wright was either a late developer, didn't take it seriously until late or was missed when he was younger.....there is no privilege aspect to choosing footballers or his success or failure.

However, beyond that I don't really think we are speaking the same language on meritocracy.

Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jan 2019 12.41pm)

Fair dues. Time we both moved on...but believe me, I'm anything but an ideologue of any stripe. I'm always willing to be convinced.

If you want to live in a world full of kindness, respect and love, try to show these qualities.

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Stirlingsays 23 Jan 19 7.08pm
Originally posted by steve1984 Ain't that the truth. One of the main reasons I moved abroad was so I could send my three kids to a school that unlike mine didn't attempt to instill in them a sense of entitlement or alternatively one that forced them to share a classroom with kids whose parents didn't value education. Of course it's possible to find a half decent secondary schools in the UK but it's a bit of lottery and didn't want to gamble with their futures. Not sure how true it is generally but in the "white van man" working class suburb where we live, the local school is on OFSTED's fail list. I met one of the teachers out walking my dog recently and he voiced his frustration at meeting parents who don't see any point in encouraging their kids do do well at school "'cos they're gonna join me in my plumbing business and do well for themselves just like me." Conversely the inner city academy 3 miles down the road is doing quite well academically and there's hardly a white face to be seen. Edited by steve1984 (23 Jan 2019 5.58pm) I liked the first two paragraphs. Your third paragraph made me chuckle Stevie....So what are you conclusions from these observations? 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

23 Jan 19 7.08pm

Originally posted by steve1984

Of course it's possible to find a half decent secondary schools in the UK but it's a bit of lottery and didn't want to gamble with their futures.

Edited by steve1984 (23 Jan 2019 5.58pm)

I liked the first two paragraphs.

Your third paragraph made me chuckle Stevie....So what are you conclusions from these observations?

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 23 Jan 19 7.10pm
Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig Fair dues. Time we both moved on...but believe me, I'm anything but an ideologue of any stripe. I'm always willing to be convinced. Well, we focused upon a narrow area of politics and our difference was reasonably narrow if specific. Yep, a good exchange of views....tips hat. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

23 Jan 19 7.10pm

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

Fair dues. Time we both moved on...but believe me, I'm anything but an ideologue of any stripe. I'm always willing to be convinced.

Well, we focused upon a narrow area of politics and our difference was reasonably narrow if specific.

Yep, a good exchange of views....tips hat.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steve1984 23 Jan 19 7.24pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I liked the first two paragraphs. Your third paragraph made me chuckle Stevie....So what are you conclusions from these observations? I already said that I'm not sure how true it is generally. One swallow does not a summer make and all that. However I note that you don't dispute the veracity of the story. So as a former teacher your conclusions might be more illuminating?
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steve1984 23 Jan 19 7.24pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I liked the first two paragraphs.

Your third paragraph made me chuckle Stevie....So what are you conclusions from these observations?

I already said that I'm not sure how true it is generally.

One swallow does not a summer make and all that.

However I note that you don't dispute the veracity of the story. So as a former teacher your conclusions might be more illuminating?

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Stirlingsays 23 Jan 19 7.51pm
Originally posted by steve1984 I already said that I'm not sure how true it is generally. One swallow does not a summer make and all that. However I note that you don't dispute the veracity of the story. So as a former teacher your conclusions might be more illuminating? I know the statistics on academic attainment.....they differ for different groups....Several programmes have been used to try to 'correct' this. There are a lot of lies and delusions in education....well meaning ones but lies and delusions all the same. People aren't told the truth....because truth involves winners and losers....and everybody prefers warm words instead....They prefer invented concepts like equality....Which of course causes more damage than it helps. Saying that social constructionists have caused and continue to cause an incredible amount of damage within society.....and every single one of them thought that they were doing good.....but that's how the most damage is done. It's the stupidity of the 'blank slate' belief......The denial and demonisation of human nature. Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jan 2019 7.55pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

23 Jan 19 7.51pm

Originally posted by steve1984

I already said that I'm not sure how true it is generally.

One swallow does not a summer make and all that.

However I note that you don't dispute the veracity of the story. So as a former teacher your conclusions might be more illuminating?

I know the statistics on academic attainment.....they differ for different groups....Several programmes have been used to try to 'correct' this.

There are a lot of lies and delusions in education....well meaning ones but lies and delusions all the same. People aren't told the truth....because truth involves winners and losers....and everybody prefers warm words instead....They prefer invented concepts like equality....Which of course causes more damage than it helps.

Saying that social constructionists have caused and continue to cause an incredible amount of damage within society.....and every single one of them thought that they were doing good.....but that's how the most damage is done.

It's the stupidity of the 'blank slate' belief......The denial and demonisation of human nature.

Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jan 2019 7.55pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steve1984 23 Jan 19 7.54pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I know the statistics on academic attainment.....they differ for different groups....Several programmes have been used to try to 'correct' this. It's the stupidity of the 'blank slate' belief......The denial and demonisation of human nature. That sounds like it could be vaguely contentious. Would you mind elaborating a little please? Edited by steve1984 (23 Jan 2019 7.54pm)
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steve1984 23 Jan 19 7.54pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I know the statistics on academic attainment.....they differ for different groups....Several programmes have been used to try to 'correct' this.

It's the stupidity of the 'blank slate' belief......The denial and demonisation of human nature.

That sounds like it could be vaguely contentious. Would you mind elaborating a little please?

Edited by steve1984 (23 Jan 2019 7.54pm)

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