Real Reason We Lost.

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Real Reason We Lost.

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citizensmudge midlands 17 Oct 16 5.02pm
Originally posted by dynamicdick All PL managers inc Mr Pardew are paid to have a plan 'B' if another manager decides to do things a little differently. They played a 3-5-2 knowing that we would only play one up front. The 5 man midfield allowed them to deny Palace space and additionally they pressed the ball meaning Palace lost possession and were forced into errors. Once they got possession they kept it very well. Even though I dislike Noble due to his constant berating of referees, he didn't stop moving and geeing up his players. I didn't see that with us. As they had the 5 man midfield they were also able to quickly stifle Townsend's possession so that he wasn't able to make runs or put balls into the box. Tactically and AP is in charge of this we seem unable against this formation to know how to counter it which, normally means waiting to half time. We lack the ability to change into a Plan 'B' or even 'C' quickly. This is I consider to be our biggest weakness and one that has to be resolved and quickly. and one last thing....ZaZa up front worked his socks off for them unlike Benteke. All round they wanted it far more than us and had the right tactics with it. I agree with what you are saying but its not as simple as flicking a switch,we are talking about the EPL not a Sunday morning pub game.It requires a strong enough squad to be able to adapt and have multiple options and in PL terms we are still lacking a little bit.Remy will make a difference when he is fit and Cabaye proved in the second half that he gives us a balance that Ledley is not capable of.We were coming off the back of an impressive 5 game streak,we were at home so why would we look at playing anything other than how we had been?Personally I would have taken Ledley off after 15 minutes tbh he was nothing more than a passenger but AP changed things at half time and we then dominated the game,is that not a Plan 'B' given the circumstances? If he had started with a different side from the one at Everton he would have been chastised so changing it at half time as he did with the resulting second half team performance is him doing his job surely?He cannot legislate for individual errors once the game has started,you could have Plan 'L'-'X' and it wouldn't matter if players are going to ballwatch and miss penalties!
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citizensmudge

midlands 17 Oct 16 5.02pm

Originally posted by dynamicdick

All PL managers inc Mr Pardew are paid to have a plan 'B' if another manager decides to do things a little differently. They played a 3-5-2 knowing that we would only play one up front. The 5 man midfield allowed them to deny Palace space and additionally they pressed the ball meaning Palace lost possession and were forced into errors. Once they got possession they kept it very well. Even though I dislike Noble due to his constant berating of referees, he didn't stop moving and geeing up his players. I didn't see that with us.
As they had the 5 man midfield they were also able to quickly stifle Townsend's possession so that he wasn't able to make runs or put balls into the box.
Tactically and AP is in charge of this we seem unable against this formation to know how to counter it which, normally means waiting to half time. We lack the ability to change into a Plan 'B' or even 'C' quickly.
This is I consider to be our biggest weakness and one that has to be resolved and quickly.
and one last thing....ZaZa up front worked his socks off for them unlike Benteke. All round they wanted it far more than us and had the right tactics with it.

I agree with what you are saying but its not as simple as flicking a switch,we are talking about the EPL not a Sunday morning pub game.It requires a strong enough squad to be able to adapt and have multiple options and in PL terms we are still lacking a little bit.Remy will make a difference when he is fit and Cabaye proved in the second half that he gives us a balance that Ledley is not capable of.We were coming off the back of an impressive 5 game streak,we were at home so why would we look at playing anything other than how we had been?Personally I would have taken Ledley off after 15 minutes tbh he was nothing more than a passenger but AP changed things at half time and we then dominated the game,is that not a Plan 'B' given the circumstances? If he had started with a different side from the one at Everton he would have been chastised so changing it at half time as he did with the resulting second half team performance is him doing his job surely?He cannot legislate for individual errors once the game has started,you could have Plan 'L'-'X' and it wouldn't matter if players are going to ballwatch and miss penalties!

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dynamicdick Dormansland 17 Oct 16 6.01pm
Originally posted by citizensmudge I agree with what you are saying but its not as simple as flicking a switch,we are talking about the EPL not a Sunday morning pub game.It requires a strong enough squad to be able to adapt and have multiple options and in PL terms we are still lacking a little bit.Remy will make a difference when he is fit and Cabaye proved in the second half that he gives us a balance that Ledley is not capable of.We were coming off the back of an impressive 5 game streak,we were at home so why would we look at playing anything other than how we had been?Personally I would have taken Ledley off after 15 minutes tbh he was nothing more than a passenger but AP changed things at half time and we then dominated the game,is that not a Plan 'B' given the circumstances? If he had started with a different side from the one at Everton he would have been chastised so changing it at half time as he did with the resulting second half team performance is him doing his job surely?He cannot legislate for individual errors once the game has started,you could have Plan 'L'-'X' and it wouldn't matter if players are going to ballwatch and miss penalties! Because you get found out, Bilic is no fool and Pardew should have had something else up his sleeve to counter any change in formation that was forced upon him. This is why managers who work in the top sphere of football study coaching and obtain their badges. On the pitch it's a game of chess acted out by people. Bring back Brolin
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dynamicdick

Dormansland 17 Oct 16 6.01pm

Originally posted by citizensmudge

I agree with what you are saying but its not as simple as flicking a switch,we are talking about the EPL not a Sunday morning pub game.It requires a strong enough squad to be able to adapt and have multiple options and in PL terms we are still lacking a little bit.Remy will make a difference when he is fit and Cabaye proved in the second half that he gives us a balance that Ledley is not capable of.We were coming off the back of an impressive 5 game streak,we were at home so why would we look at playing anything other than how we had been?Personally I would have taken Ledley off after 15 minutes tbh he was nothing more than a passenger but AP changed things at half time and we then dominated the game,is that not a Plan 'B' given the circumstances? If he had started with a different side from the one at Everton he would have been chastised so changing it at half time as he did with the resulting second half team performance is him doing his job surely?He cannot legislate for individual errors once the game has started,you could have Plan 'L'-'X' and it wouldn't matter if players are going to ballwatch and miss penalties!

Because you get found out, Bilic is no fool and Pardew should have had something else up his sleeve to counter any change in formation that was forced upon him. This is why managers who work in the top sphere of football study coaching and obtain their badges. On the pitch it's a game of chess acted out by people.

Bring back Brolin

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citizensmudge midlands 17 Oct 16 6.11pm
Originally posted by dynamicdick Because you get found out, Bilic is no fool and Pardew should have had something else up his sleeve to counter any change in formation that was forced upon him. This is why managers who work in the top sphere of football study coaching and obtain their badges. On the pitch it's a game of chess acted out by people. Sorry mate,you picked one sentence and ignored the rest of what I wrote.No point in saying anything else,you are entitled to your opinion of course but ignoring others and using selective reading just to repeat it is pointless.And it couldn't be further from a game of chess,that comment shows how far removed you are from football and why you ignored my points. Edited by citizensmudge (17 Oct 2016 6.13pm)
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citizensmudge

midlands 17 Oct 16 6.11pm

Originally posted by dynamicdick

Sorry mate,you picked one sentence and ignored the rest of what I wrote.No point in saying anything else,you are entitled to your opinion of course but ignoring others and using selective reading just to repeat it is pointless.And it couldn't be further from a game of chess,that comment shows how far removed you are from football and why you ignored my points.

Edited by citizensmudge (17 Oct 2016 6.13pm)

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spartakev2 Anerley 17 Oct 16 6.22pm
The thing that concerned me about the game and it's not the first time I've noticed it, is the almost total lCk of movement when we're in possession. The players just seem to stand there waiting for the ball to come to them. Was better in the second half but can't do it just in one half.
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spartakev2

Anerley 17 Oct 16 6.22pm

The thing that concerned me about the game and it's not the first time I've noticed it, is the almost total lCk of movement when we're in possession. The players just seem to stand there waiting for the ball to come to them. Was better in the second half but can't do it just in one half.

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dynamicdick Dormansland 17 Oct 16 9.42pm
Originally posted by citizensmudge Sorry mate,you picked one sentence and ignored the rest of what I wrote.No point in saying anything else,you are entitled to your opinion of course but ignoring others and using selective reading just to repeat it is pointless.And it couldn't be further from a game of chess,that comment shows how far removed you are from football and why you ignored my points. Edited by citizensmudge (17 Oct 2016 6.13pm) You obviously don't play chess mate. Bring back Brolin
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dynamicdick

Dormansland 17 Oct 16 9.42pm

Originally posted by citizensmudge

Edited by citizensmudge (17 Oct 2016 6.13pm)

You obviously don't play chess mate.

Bring back Brolin

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 17 Oct 16 10.13pm
The tw@t on Talksport knew they were playing 3 centre backs 1 hour before kick off so presumably Pardew knew as well. And therefore he could've got thinking and planning and perhaps even implementing a counter strategy for such circumstances. He even had 3 centre backs, arguably 4 starting across our back 4 for a start. Umpteen midfielders and Zaha, Townsend, possibly Ward who could play wing back. I'm not even blaming Pardew. You could see we needed to win v the sh1t because we'd pick up little points now, but when you get Alan Smith the citizensmudge claiming that it's all out of Pardew's hands when West Ham are pulling us apart and it's only a matter of time before they score then maybe Pardew should reflect a bit more in how he can prepare and react to things like this rather than the usual "I wasn't happy with how we started/reacted." Edited by Rudi Hedman (17 Oct 2016 10.13pm) COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 17 Oct 16 10.13pm

The tw@t on Talksport knew they were playing 3 centre backs 1 hour before kick off so presumably Pardew knew as well. And therefore he could've got thinking and planning and perhaps even implementing a counter strategy for such circumstances. He even had 3 centre backs, arguably 4 starting across our back 4 for a start. Umpteen midfielders and Zaha, Townsend, possibly Ward who could play wing back.

I'm not even blaming Pardew. You could see we needed to win v the sh1t because we'd pick up little points now, but when you get Alan Smith the citizensmudge claiming that it's all out of Pardew's hands when West Ham are pulling us apart and it's only a matter of time before they score then maybe Pardew should reflect a bit more in how he can prepare and react to things like this rather than the usual "I wasn't happy with how we started/reacted."

Edited by Rudi Hedman (17 Oct 2016 10.13pm)

COYP

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palacer Crystal Palace 18 Oct 16 12.48am
Originally posted by Painter Obviously a new supporter! Nothing will be as bad a Puncheons effort against Spurs. What really pissed me off, was BTs coverage, is was a disgrace the way they all kept on how fantastic Spam were all game. Agree in the first half, but second half we deserved a draw at least. The coverage from bT really was s***. I was away watching in a pub. Did they put mic up the other end because I couldnt hear the crowd. I could see the Holmesdales mouths moving with no sound coming out. Edited by palacer (18 Oct 2016 12.48am) People standing in the rain just to see their dream again. The Damned
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palacer

Crystal Palace 18 Oct 16 12.48am

Originally posted by Painter

Obviously a new supporter! Nothing will be as bad a Puncheons effort against Spurs.

What really pissed me off, was BTs coverage, is was a disgrace the way they all kept on how fantastic Spam were all game. Agree in the first half, but second half we deserved a draw at least.

The coverage from bT really was s***. I was away watching in a pub. Did they put mic up the other end because I couldnt hear the crowd. I could see the Holmesdales mouths moving with no sound coming out.

Edited by palacer (18 Oct 2016 12.48am)

People standing in the rain just to see their dream again. The Damned

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taylors lovechild 18 Oct 16 7.49am
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman The tw@t on Talksport knew they were playing 3 centre backs 1 hour before kick off so presumably Pardew knew as well. And therefore he could've got thinking and planning and perhaps even implementing a counter strategy for such circumstances. He even had 3 centre backs, arguably 4 starting across our back 4 for a start. Umpteen midfielders and Zaha, Townsend, possibly Ward who could play wing back. Edited by Rudi Hedman (17 Oct 2016 10.13pm) From what I gathered W.Ham had played this tactic before and been so awful they changed to 442 at half time, so perhaps we were a bit complacent. The problem was not our formation I believe but our inability to play through them. Our wingers should have exposed the space but didn't and long balls against three big bruisers was never going to give much joy; however, in the second half we got the ball down and probably should have got a goal. Also, if we are to push on we really need our midfielders to start weighing in with more goals as this game showed that when Bentenke isn't firing we still lack a threat (Townsend has shown that he can be that but has been inconsistent).
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taylors lovechild

18 Oct 16 7.49am

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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Edited by Rudi Hedman (17 Oct 2016 10.13pm)

From what I gathered W.Ham had played this tactic before and been so awful they changed to 442 at half time, so perhaps we were a bit complacent. The problem was not our formation I believe but our inability to play through them. Our wingers should have exposed the space but didn't and long balls against three big bruisers was never going to give much joy; however, in the second half we got the ball down and probably should have got a goal. Also, if we are to push on we really need our midfielders to start weighing in with more goals as this game showed that when Bentenke isn't firing we still lack a threat (Townsend has shown that he can be that but has been inconsistent).

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bexleydave Barnehurst 18 Oct 16 9.40am
Originally posted by palacer The coverage from bT really was s.* I was away watching in a pub. Did they put mic up the other end because I couldnt hear the crowd. I could see the Holmesdales mouths moving with no sound coming out. I somehow doubt that BT's coverage had any effect on the result, which is what this thread is about. I think that you may be referring to the HF's newly formed Marcel Marceau tribute act. Bexley Dave Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing! "The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)
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bexleydave

Barnehurst 18 Oct 16 9.40am

Originally posted by palacer

The coverage from bT really was s***. I was away watching in a pub. Did they put mic up the other end because I couldnt hear the crowd. I could see the Holmesdales mouths moving with no sound coming out.

I somehow doubt that BT's coverage had any effect on the result, which is what this thread is about. I think that you may be referring to the HF's newly formed Marcel Marceau tribute act.

Bexley Dave

Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing!

"The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)

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braunstoneagle the middle of bumf*** nowhere... 18 Oct 16 10.25am
Originally posted by thai-eagle Having said the same numerous of times, but why does the manager not forbid DD to do it unless he is under heavy pressure? you could cite the point it didnt really work is that either kouatye or ogbonna were both on big ben all game and both are absolute beasts, a defender of that size attacking a high ball with momentum should always win those headers, but its not just against whu that long ball doesnt work, people jump on cabaye saying hes been s*** & not produced much but its very hard to the midfield to be effective when 50% of balls from the back completely bypass them, then the ball is back in midifeld 10 seconds later and your spending the game trying to break up attacks rather than starting them. it also explains a lot as to why zaha/andros didnt really get much of a lookin. its not the only problem but it is one of the problems from saturdays game. and quite a lot of deffiencies in the performance can be brought back to that point. ‘Football isn’t instant coffee. You have to work at it. You must grow the bean, grind it.’ Ian Holloway
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braunstoneagle

the middle of bumf*** nowhere... 18 Oct 16 10.25am

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Originally posted by thai-eagle

Having said the same numerous of times, but why does the manager not forbid DD to do it unless he is under heavy pressure?

you could cite the point it didnt really work is that either kouatye or ogbonna were both on big ben all game and both are absolute beasts, a defender of that size attacking a high ball with momentum should always win those headers, but its not just against whu that long ball doesnt work, people jump on cabaye saying hes been s*** & not produced much but its very hard to the midfield to be effective when 50% of balls from the back completely bypass them, then the ball is back in midifeld 10 seconds later and your spending the game trying to break up attacks rather than starting them. it also explains a lot as to why zaha/andros didnt really get much of a lookin.

its not the only problem but it is one of the problems from saturdays game. and quite a lot of deffiencies in the performance can be brought back to that point.

‘Football isn’t instant coffee. You have to work at it. You must grow the bean, grind it.’ Ian Holloway

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The Dolphin 18 Oct 16 12.41pm
I wasn't there as I was away and so watched it on TV. Without wishing to repeat what others have said - 1. We were slow out of the blocks whilst West Ham were well up for it - their goal was coming from almost the first minute. 2. Why were we not able to counter their aggression - if we didn't have a plan and it certainly looked like we didn't then AP is at fault - if we did then the players had a 'mare! 3. We have two wingers and yet didn't use them much in the first half - why no width? 4. Puncheon was all at sea - certainly in the first half anyway - and was a complete waste of space in that period. 5. Our full backs get sucked in to the ball all too easily - their goal was a case in point - there were already two players on Payet so why did Ward leave his man to join them - that goal is down to him and he surely knows that. 6. The Benteke penalty - keep the ball away from him if we get another penalty! 7. We now seem to want to totally rely on hoof ball towards him rather than build play to make a meaningful cross. 8. We looked better with Cabaye on but really did not threaten them at all - toothless to be honest with no plan B. I think our recent results have been good but other than against Stoke (who were woeful) we have not played that well - merely got results - and Saturday was probably where we are right now. Not that good but not that far away either given the standard of two thirds of the Premier League teams. We missed Dann and we miss Bolasie and his ability to mix things up. I still don't think Pardew is the right man for the job for all of the reasons I have stated in the past but we will see what happens. I feel sure we will survive reasonably comforably this season with points in the mid-forties but we do need to shake up the defence and get a better creative midfield general to ensure we have someone who is able to take the game by the scruff of the neck because even with Dann in the team there is no vocal presence on the field of play. Just my thoughts.
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The Dolphin

18 Oct 16 12.41pm

I wasn't there as I was away and so watched it on TV.
Without wishing to repeat what others have said -
1. We were slow out of the blocks whilst West Ham were well up for it - their goal was coming from almost the first minute.
2. Why were we not able to counter their aggression - if we didn't have a plan and it certainly looked like we didn't then AP is at fault - if we did then the players had a 'mare!
3. We have two wingers and yet didn't use them much in the first half - why no width?
4. Puncheon was all at sea - certainly in the first half anyway - and was a complete waste of space in that period.
5. Our full backs get sucked in to the ball all too easily - their goal was a case in point - there were already two players on Payet so why did Ward leave his man to join them - that goal is down to him and he surely knows that.
6. The Benteke penalty - keep the ball away from him if we get another penalty!
7. We now seem to want to totally rely on hoof ball towards him rather than build play to make a meaningful cross.
8. We looked better with Cabaye on but really did not threaten them at all - toothless to be honest with no plan B.
I think our recent results have been good but other than against Stoke (who were woeful) we have not played that well - merely got results - and Saturday was probably where we are right now.
Not that good but not that far away either given the standard of two thirds of the Premier League teams.
We missed Dann and we miss Bolasie and his ability to mix things up.
I still don't think Pardew is the right man for the job for all of the reasons I have stated in the past but we will see what happens.
I feel sure we will survive reasonably comforably this season with points in the mid-forties but we do need to shake up the defence and get a better creative midfield general to ensure we have someone who is able to take the game by the scruff of the neck because even with Dann in the team there is no vocal presence on the field of play.
Just my thoughts.

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citizensmudge midlands 18 Oct 16 2.04pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman The tw@t on Talksport knew they were playing 3 centre backs 1 hour before kick off so presumably Pardew knew as well. And therefore he could've got thinking and planning and perhaps even implementing a counter strategy for such circumstances. He even had 3 centre backs, arguably 4 starting across our back 4 for a start. Umpteen midfielders and Zaha, Townsend, possibly Ward who could play wing back. I'm not even blaming Pardew. You could see we needed to win v the sh1t because we'd pick up little points now, but when you get Alan Smith the citizensmudge claiming that it's all out of Pardew's hands when West Ham are pulling us apart and it's only a matter of time before they score then maybe Pardew should reflect a bit more in how he can prepare and react to things like this rather than the usual "I wasn't happy with how we started/reacted." Edited by Rudi Hedman (17 Oct 2016 10.13pm) Too busy spouting s***e to take notice as usual Rudi, I said on a couple of occasions that I thought AP should have taken Ledley off after 15 minutes as he just wasn't effective in such a crowded midfield. The second half proved that it would have helped as he did indeed change the game.Secondly,are you saying that that you think AP should have panicked and changed the game plan just because the opponents named a different team? He would have had 30 minutes to try and explain a complete new set of individual and team responsibilities despite the fact that we were unbeaten in 5 and at home.This is the EPL not a sunday league game,i can imagine you if AP had done what you are suggesting and we had been 3-0 down at half time because of the changes.You would have been in your element berating the same changes you are using to dig at him now.
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citizensmudge

midlands 18 Oct 16 2.04pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Edited by Rudi Hedman (17 Oct 2016 10.13pm)

Too busy spouting s***e to take notice as usual Rudi, I said on a couple of occasions that I thought AP should have taken Ledley off after 15 minutes as he just wasn't effective in such a crowded midfield. The second half proved that it would have helped as he did indeed change the game.Secondly,are you saying that that you think AP should have panicked and changed the game plan just because the opponents named a different team? He would have had 30 minutes to try and explain a complete new set of individual and team responsibilities despite the fact that we were unbeaten in 5 and at home.This is the EPL not a sunday league game,i can imagine you if AP had done what you are suggesting and we had been 3-0 down at half time because of the changes.You would have been in your element berating the same changes you are using to dig at him now.

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