The Hillsborough Verdict

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The Hillsborough Verdict

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 27 Apr 16 10.30am
Originally posted by hibbystu I am so glad that it has been proved in a court of law, that no one was pissed and everyone had a valid ticket Their proof was bins near the gate half full and mainly Vimto, Sprite and other soft drinks with a few lager bottles. They've never heard of a pub then and being stopped from carrying your glass away from the pub by the Police. And their proof on the tickets was a few waving them on CCTV when going through the gates. It should've been made public knowledge that certain behaviour happens at football and not just Scousers. But as they had most success and biggest following, the authorities should be well prepared for everything to protect all. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 27 Apr 16 10.30am

Originally posted by hibbystu

I am so glad that it has been proved in a court of law, that no one was pissed and everyone had a valid ticket

Their proof was bins near the gate half full and mainly Vimto, Sprite and other soft drinks with a few lager bottles. They've never heard of a pub then and being stopped from carrying your glass away from the pub by the Police.

And their proof on the tickets was a few waving them on CCTV when going through the gates.

It should've been made public knowledge that certain behaviour happens at football and not just Scousers. But as they had most success and biggest following, the authorities should be well prepared for everything to protect all.

COYP

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The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 27 Apr 16 10.53am
Originally posted by Kermit8 What still is astounding even taking into account the human error element is how close the police viewing box with Duckenfield in it was to the Leppings Lane end. Even Stevie Wonder could have seen that the end pens were just over half full whilst the middle ones were rammed at around 2.45. Ralph Wiggum could have done a better job. That though was a sign of the times Kerms...We were herded, penned and generally treated to conditions that they wouldn't allow for cattle...so its packed in and you are pressed against a bloke with chronic dandruff who smells like he has f***ed a horse for 90 minutes...so what ?? As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014
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The Sash

Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 27 Apr 16 10.53am

Originally posted by Kermit8

What still is astounding even taking into account the human error element is how close the police viewing box with Duckenfield in it was to the Leppings Lane end. Even Stevie Wonder could have seen that the end pens were just over half full whilst the middle ones were rammed at around 2.45.

Ralph Wiggum could have done a better job.

That though was a sign of the times Kerms...We were herded, penned and generally treated to conditions that they wouldn't allow for cattle...so its packed in and you are pressed against a bloke with chronic dandruff who smells like he has f***ed a horse for 90 minutes...so what ??

As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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Old Chap Orpington 27 Apr 16 2.17pm
Originally posted by Hoof Hearted But they do say the law is an ass Stu! Sadly, because of the previous cover ups by police, government etc and putting ALL the blame on the fans, no one is even allowed to suggest that even one person from Liverpool had a schooner of sherry that day and wasn't holding a valid ticket. Even the choice of a predominately female jury that would concur with this ridiculous notion was arranged. Anyhow..... all our lives are a lot safer today as a result of the lessons learned from that awful tragedy. I think there should be prosecutions for those people that arranged the cover up and the lies, but as for prosecuting Duckenfield? He already looks a broken man to me. I saw a suggestion on Twitter that Mackenzie should be charged with perverting the course of justice, as the lies he told contributed to the hiding of facts Trivial fact - Palace used to win 5-1 at least once a season, maybe next season?
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Old Chap

Orpington 27 Apr 16 2.17pm

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

But they do say the law is an ass Stu!

Sadly, because of the previous cover ups by police, government etc and putting ALL the blame on the fans, no one is even allowed to suggest that even one person from Liverpool had a schooner of sherry that day and wasn't holding a valid ticket.

Even the choice of a predominately female jury that would concur with this ridiculous notion was arranged.

Anyhow..... all our lives are a lot safer today as a result of the lessons learned from that awful tragedy.

I think there should be prosecutions for those people that arranged the cover up and the lies, but as for prosecuting Duckenfield? He already looks a broken man to me.

I saw a suggestion on Twitter that Mackenzie should be charged with perverting the course of justice, as the lies he told contributed to the hiding of facts

Trivial fact - Palace used to win 5-1 at least once a season, maybe next season?

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Seth On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 16 2.48pm
To all those standing up for Duckenfield or continuing to imply that LFC fans were in some way culpable for their own deaths, or those of their fellow fans, I urge you to read this comprehensive and detailed article by respected sports investigator David Conn, which lays out the sequence of events which lead to the disastrous police handling of the game, and Duckenfield's part in it. It's quite a long piece, but it will answer many of the questions which have been raised on this thread: [Link] "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 16 2.48pm

To all those standing up for Duckenfield or continuing to imply that LFC fans were in some way culpable for their own deaths, or those of their fellow fans, I urge you to read this comprehensive and detailed article by respected sports investigator David Conn, which lays out the sequence of events which lead to the disastrous police handling of the game, and Duckenfield's part in it. It's quite a long piece, but it will answer many of the questions which have been raised on this thread:

[Link]

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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Lyons550 Shirley 27 Apr 16 2.51pm
The whole f*ing thing is a sorry mess. I've been switching off the radio everytime it's being mentioned at the mo. The BBC fawning over the whole thing is vomit enducing. What I would say is that there were a number of factors that led to the tragedy...not just the POLICE's actions. For the Fans to be absolved of any** blame whatsoever is laughable...numerous parties had a part to play in this...those ticketless fans that turned up trying to get in forcing the hand of an individual to make the wrong choice...to the stadium not having stewards with keys to the gates. The ONLY people who should have no part in the blame are the ones that are DEAD. No matter what happens now it's just fuelled the insatiable need to be seen as 'victims' and to point the finger elsewhere. There will of course be no end of litigation now as a result.....rather than accepting that The Police messed up and letting it lie there......but there's no money in that is there... The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World
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Lyons550

Shirley 27 Apr 16 2.51pm

The whole f***ing thing is a sorry mess.

I've been switching off the radio everytime it's being mentioned at the mo.

The BBC fawning over the whole thing is vomit enducing.

What I would say is that there were a number of factors that led to the tragedy...not just the POLICE's actions.

For the Fans to be absolved of any blame whatsoever is laughable...numerous parties had a part to play in this...those ticketless fans that turned up trying to get in forcing the hand of an individual to make the wrong choice...to the stadium not having stewards with keys to the gates.

The ONLY people who should have no part in the blame are the ones that are DEAD.

No matter what happens now it's just fuelled the insatiable need to be seen as 'victims' and to point the finger elsewhere.

There will of course be no end of litigation now as a result.....rather than accepting that The Police messed up and letting it lie there......but there's no money in that is there...

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

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Seth On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 16 2.56pm
Originally posted by Hoof Hearted Sadly, because of the previous cover ups by police, government etc and putting ALL the blame on the fans, no one is even allowed to suggest that even one person from Liverpool had a schooner of sherry that day and wasn't holding a valid ticket. Even the choice of a predominately female jury that would concur with this ridiculous notion was arranged. I think there should be prosecutions for those people that arranged the cover up and the lies, but as for prosecuting Duckenfield? He already looks a broken man to me. No-one is saying that none of the fans had had a drink, or that everyone had a ticket. That isn't the point and would be ridiculous. The point is the police should've had a plan to deal with it, as it happened often at that time, and the fact they didn't, and the other major mistakes they made, was the main cause of the disaster. Your point about the jury is deeply offensive, sexist, and frankly contemptible. Where is your proof that having a majority female jury had any bearing whatsoever on the verdict, or that they would somehow be more likely to believe one view or another, or that it was "arranged" that way? It would be illegal to "arrange" a jury in that way and I don't believe you have any evidence whatsoever to back up this view. As for Duckenfield, of course he should be held accountable. He has admitted he caused the deaths, so should face the consequences. Broken or not, he shouldn't be allowed to get away with 96 deaths which, as he has admitted, were his fault. "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 16 2.56pm

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

Even the choice of a predominately female jury that would concur with this ridiculous notion was arranged.

I think there should be prosecutions for those people that arranged the cover up and the lies, but as for prosecuting Duckenfield? He already looks a broken man to me.

Your point about the jury is deeply offensive, sexist, and frankly contemptible. Where is your proof that having a majority female jury had any bearing whatsoever on the verdict, or that they would somehow be more likely to believe one view or another, or that it was "arranged" that way? It would be illegal to "arrange" a jury in that way and I don't believe you have any evidence whatsoever to back up this view.

As for Duckenfield, of course he should be held accountable. He has admitted he caused the deaths, so should face the consequences. Broken or not, he shouldn't be allowed to get away with 96 deaths which, as he has admitted, were his fault.

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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kenbarr Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 27 Apr 16 3.08pm
Originally posted by Seth No-one is saying that none of the fans had had a drink, or that everyone had a ticket. That isn't the point and would be ridiculous. The point is the police should've had a plan to deal with it, as it happened often at that time, and the fact they didn't, and the other major mistakes they made, was the main cause of the disaster. Your point about the jury is deeply offensive, sexist, and frankly contemptible. Where is your proof that having a majority female jury had any bearing whatsoever on the verdict, or that they would somehow be more likely to believe one view or another, or that it was "arranged" that way? It would be illegal to "arrange" a jury in that way and I don't believe you have any evidence whatsoever to back up this view. As for Duckenfield, of course he should be held accountable. He has admitted he caused the deaths, so should face the consequences. Broken or not, he shouldn't be allowed to get away with 96 deaths which, as he has admitted, were his fault. Hear, hear. Divorced...And LOVING it! VJRAM Rev. CPFC since Boxing Day 1989 CPFC 2-2 CFC Gregg Berhalter, US International & USMNT Head Coach Jill Ellis, England International & Retired USWNT Head Coach Trevor Francis, International PRAT
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kenbarr

Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 27 Apr 16 3.08pm

Originally posted by Seth

Hear, hear.

Divorced...And LOVING it!
VJRAM Rev.
CPFC since Boxing Day 1989 CPFC 2-2 CFC
Gregg Berhalter, US International & USMNT Head Coach
Jill Ellis, England International & Retired USWNT Head Coach
Trevor Francis, International PRAT

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 27 Apr 16 3.26pm
Originally posted by Seth No-one is saying that none of the fans had had a drink, or that everyone had a ticket. That isn't the point and would be ridiculous. The point is the police should've had a plan to deal with it, as it happened often at that time, and the fact they didn't, and the other major mistakes they made, was the main cause of the disaster. Your point about the jury is deeply offensive, sexist, and frankly contemptible. Where is your proof that having a majority female jury had any bearing whatsoever on the verdict, or that they would somehow be more likely to believe one view or another, or that it was "arranged" that way? It would be illegal to "arrange" a jury in that way and I don't believe you have any evidence whatsoever to back up this view. As for Duckenfield, of course he should be held accountable. He has admitted he caused the deaths, so should face the consequences. Broken or not, he shouldn't be allowed to get away with 96 deaths which, as he has admitted, were his fault. Yep. But the issue is as well that the jury and the public believe this is the case yet there is no proof and every single football match and every big game what happened before the gate opened was the nom. The poor parents of most of the dead know their loved ones were sober, they got there early. Some of the other normal stuff has been brushed under the carpet. If the person in charge on the day had any experience of big football matches it probably wouldn't have happened. The game might have been delayed, there might have been problems outside the ground, more people would've been employed or more turnstyles open, but what went on that day before the gates were opened would've gone on at least 1 semi final and final every season in that decade. It would've been Liverpool, Everton, Man U, Spurs, whoever. Or they could've just reduced capacity in terraces by 10% or something for away ends for big games or all terraces for semi's and finals. But I do have an issue with LFC fans turning up today for big games and trying and gaining entry ticketless. Definitely happened at Selhurst. Didn't it happen in Instanbul as well? There are without doubt a minority who are selfish and care free and they need to be shamed. Edited by Rudi Hedman (27 Apr 2016 3.29pm) COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 27 Apr 16 3.26pm

Originally posted by Seth

No-one is saying that none of the fans had had a drink, or that everyone had a ticket. That isn't the point and would be ridiculous. The point is the police should've had a plan to deal with it, as it happened often at that time, and the fact they didn't, and the other major mistakes they made, was the main cause of the disaster.

Your point about the jury is deeply offensive, sexist, and frankly contemptible. Where is your proof that having a majority female jury had any bearing whatsoever on the verdict, or that they would somehow be more likely to believe one view or another, or that it was "arranged" that way? It would be illegal to "arrange" a jury in that way and I don't believe you have any evidence whatsoever to back up this view.

Yep. But the issue is as well that the jury and the public believe this is the case yet there is no proof and every single football match and every big game what happened before the gate opened was the nom. The poor parents of most of the dead know their loved ones were sober, they got there early. Some of the other normal stuff has been brushed under the carpet.

If the person in charge on the day had any experience of big football matches it probably wouldn't have happened. The game might have been delayed, there might have been problems outside the ground, more people would've been employed or more turnstyles open, but what went on that day before the gates were opened would've gone on at least 1 semi final and final every season in that decade. It would've been Liverpool, Everton, Man U, Spurs, whoever.

Or they could've just reduced capacity in terraces by 10% or something for away ends for big games or all terraces for semi's and finals.

But I do have an issue with LFC fans turning up today for big games and trying and gaining entry ticketless. Definitely happened at Selhurst. Didn't it happen in Instanbul as well? There are without doubt a minority who are selfish and care free and they need to be shamed.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (27 Apr 2016 3.29pm)

COYP

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Seth On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 16 4.26pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman But I do have an issue with LFC fans turning up today for big games and trying and gaining entry ticketless. Definitely happened at Selhurst. Didn't it happen in Instanbul as well? There are without doubt a minority who are selfish and care free and they need to be shamed. Of course that's an issue, and isn't confined to LFC fans. However, it had nothing to do with what happened at Hillsborough, as has been proved in court. It's a separate matter and the two shouldn't be conflated. For people to continue to imply a link is wrong and is a deeply unfair to those who died or were otherwise involved, and their families. "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 16 4.26pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Of course that's an issue, and isn't confined to LFC fans. However, it had nothing to do with what happened at Hillsborough, as has been proved in court. It's a separate matter and the two shouldn't be conflated. For people to continue to imply a link is wrong and is a deeply unfair to those who died or were otherwise involved, and their families.

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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OldFella London 27 Apr 16 4.41pm
Originally posted by Seth Of course that's an issue, and isn't confined to LFC fans. However, it had nothing to do with what happened at Hillsborough, as has been proved in court. It's a separate matter and the two shouldn't be conflated. For people to continue to imply a link is wrong and is a deeply unfair to those who died or were otherwise involved, and their families. "Conflated"? SERIOUS wally alert on HOL boards. You bore me so tremendously Seth. Jackson.. Wan Bissaka.... Sansom.. Nicholas.. Cannon.. Guehi.... Zaha... Thomas.. Byrne... Holton.. Rogers.. that should do it..
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OldFella

London 27 Apr 16 4.41pm

Originally posted by Seth

"Conflated"? SERIOUS wally alert on HOL boards. You bore me so tremendously Seth.

Jackson.. Wan Bissaka.... Sansom.. Nicholas.. Cannon.. Guehi.... Zaha... Thomas.. Byrne... Holton.. Rogers.. that should do it..

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Seth On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 16 4.51pm
Originally posted by OldFella "Conflated"? SERIOUS wally alert on HOL boards. You bore me so tremendously Seth. You appear to have mistaken me for someone who gives an iota of steaming dogsh*t what you think. If you don't like my posts don't read them. That's what I do with yours, although a "block" function would make life so much simpler when "wallies" like you are in full-on troll mode. "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 16 4.51pm

Originally posted by OldFella

"Conflated"? SERIOUS wally alert on HOL boards. You bore me so tremendously Seth.

You appear to have mistaken me for someone who gives an iota of steaming dogsh*t what you think.

If you don't like my posts don't read them. That's what I do with yours, although a "block" function would make life so much simpler when "wallies" like you are in full-on troll mode.

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 27 Apr 16 4.53pm
Originally posted by Seth Of course that's an issue, and isn't confined to LFC fans. However, it had nothing to do with what happened at Hillsborough, as has been proved in court. It's a separate matter and the two shouldn't be conflated. For people to continue to imply a link is wrong and is a deeply unfair to those who died or were otherwise involved, and their families. Only it's people from the same club and same city as those demanding justice for the 96 who died. Thousands of people from Liverpool angered at the lies and miscarriage of justice yet there are hundreds who are still behaving in a way that they were accused of in the 1st place. The people who died were completely innocent, maybe hardly any fans actually got in, maybe they didn't get in before it reached its worst. But people without tickets could have and could still make an incident worse or even cause it to happen in the 1st place. If you said this in the company of people foreign to '80s football or even the odd game of modern football they'll think you're insensitive and prejudiced. Several clubs tried it on then, now only one club I know of try it on now. Inexcusable and shameless minority. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 27 Apr 16 4.53pm

Originally posted by Seth

Of course that's an issue, and isn't confined to LFC fans. However, it had nothing to do with what happened at Hillsborough, as has been proved in court. It's a separate matter and the two shouldn't be conflated. For people to continue to imply a link is wrong and is a deeply unfair to those who died or were otherwise involved, and their families.

Only it's people from the same club and same city as those demanding justice for the 96 who died. Thousands of people from Liverpool angered at the lies and miscarriage of justice yet there are hundreds who are still behaving in a way that they were accused of in the 1st place.

The people who died were completely innocent, maybe hardly any fans actually got in, maybe they didn't get in before it reached its worst. But people without tickets could have and could still make an incident worse or even cause it to happen in the 1st place. If you said this in the company of people foreign to '80s football or even the odd game of modern football they'll think you're insensitive and prejudiced.

Several clubs tried it on then, now only one club I know of try it on now. Inexcusable and shameless minority.

COYP

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