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Now that's my kind of Religion

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EaglesEaglesEagles Flag 19 Mar 15 7.13pm Send a Private Message to EaglesEaglesEagles Add EaglesEaglesEagles as a friend

Quote dannyh at 19 Mar 2015 7.04pm

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 19 Mar 2015 4.08pm

Quote dannyh at 19 Mar 2015 1.48pm

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 18 Mar 2015 8.52pm

Quote reborn at 18 Mar 2015 7.26pm

Quote dannyh at 18 Mar 2015 6.15pm

Quote Crystal_Clear at 18 Mar 2015 5.26pm

See, this is what happens when established religion comes up.

That's why I started this thread, we'd all be better off sitting back and admiring sexy nuns, as in the video link.

Failing that, I think Peter Griffin was onto something when he started the Church of the Fonz.


That was kind of my point, I don't really give a sh1t what people believe in, but if you dare poke holes in their particular brand of sky fairy, the "Christian" attitude soon evaporates and your left with a sething pile of religious bile.

It doesnt matter if you muslim or christian or Jew, people who blindly believe all their religious texts are dangerous people to have around.

That's not true Dan, if you are confrontational and rude to others on a message forum on any subject you can guarantee that you will be met with the same in spades. I quite like you, always have, you will note no bile from me for instance.

However, you are using a straw-man argument in this post, bile is ever present on a message forum, try looking around. LOL

He is actually correct in a sense. He proposes that atheism twinned with science is the only logical and appropriate position to take and that all faith based or spiritual belief is false.

Therefore, if a person tries to present a different argument and suggest any sort of supernatural force or God their action is pointless and without grounding to him. He has established what the correct thing to believe in and for this reason anything which cannot be proved purely on a basis of logic or science cannot be argued for. So if a Christian or a member of another faith try to contradict his points they have no case and engage in spouting religious bile.

I don't appreciate being called dangerous and I dont think I seethe (think that's what he meant). However, he thinks I'm blind and if faith is to be categorised universally as obsolete then he is correct.
This post is not in any way rude, attempting to be confrontational nor presenting a point of view. What I have tried to do is explain the dannyh's opinion. He doesn't care what people believe, everyone's entitled to believe anything. But there is not a single religious or faith based belief worth debating and any response to his scientific and logic based argument has absolutely no value.


Draws deep breath .......

Right you've nearly got it, however just because I deal in absolutes on a message board doesn’t mean I haven’t sat and pondered the likely hood of Jesus Moses and all.

As I said earlier I was brought up a Catholic, and didn’t have any bad experiances (as you put it) at all. I grew up in a very stable Anglo/Irish family, but I do have an enquiring mind and as I got older, things in the bible had clear similarities to Fables read out in class, be good, don’t be bad, morality etc etc . So I spent quite a long time at odds with my faith, researching from all aspects of the argument, for and against faith based devotion.

Now I could drone on and on with my meandering thoughts and counter thoughts on the subject of religion, but I would be in to the hundreds of pages before I got to my obvious conclusion that as far as factual text goes, the bible has very little basis in fact if any, and even less credence in truth. Allow me try and let you see a tiny bit of why I have the opinion I do.

There are countless religious texts that mirror stories told in the bible that pre date Jesus by thousands of years, for example the Egyptian GodHorus 3100BC was one of the many Egyptian Gods. He had 12 disciples. He was born of a virgin in a cave. His birth was announced by a star, and was attended by three wise men. He was baptized at age thirty by Anup the Baptizer. Horus performed miracles, including rising at least one person from the dead and walking on water. He was crucified, buried in a tomb, and resurrected, just like Jesus.

Then we have Mithra2000BC Yet another example of virginal birth, Mithra was born to the virgin Anahita on December 25th. He was swaddled and placed in a manger, where he was tended to by shepherds. Like Jesus and Horus, he had 12 companions (which can be interpreted as disciples). He also performed miracles, identified with both the lion and the lamb, sacrificed his life to save the world, was dead for three days before being resurrected, and was known as the messiah, the savior, and “the Way, the Truth and the Light.” His religion also had a Eucharistic-style “Lord’s supper.”

I could go on, even Buddha has some comparisons, eg walking on water, healing the sick, he even did the old feed 500 trick from one basket of cakes ..seem familiar ?

The point is Jesus is just another example of early mans need to believe, instead of understand, and as science improves more and more people should (bit of an assumption I will admit) decide that the bible and religion as whole has one massive floor....It's all bollocks.

Now I could also perceive from my meandering research over the years, that because all these stories share similar traits there must be some truth to it ? All these different civilisations recounting almost identical stories but thousands of years apart ? it does pose an interesting question in reference to the existence of a God like figure who came to Earth many thousands of years ago. Who the fcuk knows ? I know I don't.

Look at it this way if we were in court and I was prosecuting the bible and you defending it, I would win with any jury that had half a brain and wasn't completely Tonto.(again assumption on my part but you get the point I hope).

Hopefully you now see my stance, It is not totally and utterly dismissive more my own opinion based on my own research and thoughts.

I respect that you not only have experience with being a religious believer but have also considered and investigated the idea of myth making across the centuries and have come to the conclusion that the deification of Jesus is similarly a myth due to many similarities in other myths such as that of Horus.

I don't think you just dismiss things out of hand because you don't like them. I respect the fact that you have made conclusions through research that God cannot exist and Jesus and other religious figures are deified through methods shared with myths. I see that as a fair approach to take and have never denied that you take this. You've actually wasted a bit of your own time writing it down, I've heard these points before and can understand why people see them and find the story of Jesus as the Son of God hard to believe.

My problem is not only with the fact that you are rude and dismissive of all religious beliefs without considering the wider points. In your previous post you made reference to the fact that people are continuing to understand the world more through improvements in science. This is a point I agree on. However, I have personal problems with existence that I don't feel science can explain. They are (as I've already actually said):


1) How could the universe have infinitely existed in the form of a mass of elements and then been created chemically through a big bang of its own accord.

2) I don't necessarily dismiss the big bang, just the fact that there definitely wasn't a creative force (a God) behind it.

3) I don't understand how chemicals can combine and form molecules which develop into organs and bodies which have LIFE. How does life come from lifeless matter? How are humans conscious and no other animal comes close to us?


Please, ignore the fact that I am a Christian. Don't answer with talk about religious books or a religious figure as the only answer to these problems. They aren't. I'm not suggesting these are the solution to you. There could be a deist creator of sorts, just ignore the religious element. The point is that I am not assured of the universe's creation just happening out of chance. I am not an existentialist.
Now do you see my point?

Edited by EaglesEaglesEagles (19 Mar 2015 4.10pm)

Well essentailly we agree then (sort of) I also believe that the something, not chance, is responsible for all life who or what that is, is if you like, the struggle of man to understand things beyond his comprehension , that in turn gives rise to all the incredulous crap that you read in religious texts.

My opinion is that, as we start to unravel the mysteries of the universe through science we will, in time, come to understand how it all started. we have barely scratched the surface, but we are on the right track, things like the Hadron collider and the infamous Higgs Boson particle are (although relatively un scrutinised) a step in that direction albeit a small one.

I guess having thought long and hard about my viewpoint, it is thus:

Rather than pin my hopes onto an "easy fix" or solution to the big question, I would rather wait it out and see what science comes up with, we can split atoms, graft skin cells, stem cell research is in its infancey but the prospects are really without limits.

I don't think (apart from being a massive prick) that my view is that different to yours.

I have just decided that the bible is to blunt a tool to answer the big question with.

Cool. Glad this has been sorted out.

 


I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry.

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 20 Mar 15 9.24am


1) How could the universe have infinitely existed in the form of a mass of elements and then been created chemically through a big bang of its own accord.

This is quite easy to explain, but quite tricky to get your head around. The Big Bang' only really creates space/time. The universe is essentially comprised of subatomic particles, nothing is created or destroyed ever, it simply changes forms and that's true regardless of scales.

Prior to the big bang, there is no dimension of space time, so everything exists at a zero point in which time and space have never existed (which is the very hard part to get your head around as our entire existence and experience occurs within space-time.

Reality takes on a different appearance from different dimensional positions, hence existence in space and time looks like there is a point of creation and destruction, but from a higher dimensional position, the entropic process of the universe has been completed (all existence is a progression towards a superpositional point, the only difference is that we're part of that process, experiencing it 'as it occurs' because our perception is rooted in the fourth dimension.


2) I don't necessarily dismiss the big bang, just the fact that there definitely wasn't a creative force (a God) behind it.

There was a creative force, most likely, but that remains an unknown factor, and there is no evidence to suggest that an intelligent entity is involved (the hypothesis would of course require demonstration of where that entity came from).


3) I don't understand how chemicals can combine and form molecules which develop into organs and bodies which have LIFE. How does life come from lifeless matter? How are humans conscious and no other animal comes close to us?

Entropic process causes the change of state of matter, which is comprised of elements, that are made up of atoms, which are constructed of subatomic particles.

How life initially occurred is up for debate - it probably involved amino acids. What is certain that once you establish single cell life forms, evolutionary theory can explain how single cells slowly, over time, develop into different and more complex life forms. Things like organs don't appear 'over night' they develop from rudimentary forms (the Blind Watchmaker explains this really well, showing how an eye can occur from very simple lifeforms).

No living animal comes close to us. However, homo sapains are the only surviving member of our species (so far at least seven separate species of homind of the homo species are known to have existed, all but one before homo sapian, homo nethadrathal overlaps home sapiens).

Human consciousness isn't actually anywhere near as special as people like to believe, what seperates us from the other species is our capacity for language, not consciousness - which is a factor of all mammals.

We're also the only mammal capable of true language due to a percuilarity of the human lyrnx and throat (which creates an increased choking risk). The position of the human lyranx and voice box mean that humans are capable of making an near infinite number of sounds, compared to most other mammals that can usually muster between 40 and 100 distinct sounds.

We also have minimal nervous system speciality (very important in creating spare 'brain capacity'). Humans don't have to fly, spot prey at a mile, smell blood in the water etc all of which uses up an inordinate amount of fixed brain capacity, which leaves room for increased mirror neurons (of which we have s**t loads) which are involved in learning.

We tend to view animals as inferior 'intellectually' because we judge them from an humanocentric position - but we also lack, say the capacity of a smell of a dog, the sonar of a bat, the auditory capacity of a cat - which arguably are far superior - but we judge these as inferior, because they're not like us.

For example, we need to build a scanner, and tests to detect some forms of cancer, that experimental evidence suggests dogs can smell.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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dannyh Flag wherever I lay my hat....... 20 Mar 15 9.46am Send a Private Message to dannyh Add dannyh as a friend

Bit early for the pipe is it not ?

 


"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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EaglesEaglesEagles Flag 20 Mar 15 10.07am Send a Private Message to EaglesEaglesEagles Add EaglesEaglesEagles as a friend

Just for the record jamie, I personally can't get my head round a lot of what you're explaining. It isn't stubbornness, I just can't follow the explanatory steps, particularly in the case of life which you say is up for debate. The fact that you use words like 'probably' indicates that there is no real certainty over anything in this field at all.
With single-celled organisms and suchlike we can say that life must come from 'x' because a cell can be broken down chemically in all its parts. But we don't actually know how. Just the manner in which chemicals react and develop. If we could explain it fully then I would have thought scientists would be geared towards a life-creating project that extends beyond the synthetic DNA already created.

 


I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry.

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dannyh Flag wherever I lay my hat....... 20 Mar 15 10.11am Send a Private Message to dannyh Add dannyh as a friend

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 20 Mar 2015 10.07am

Just for the record jamie, I personally can't get my head round a lot of what you're explaining. It isn't stubbornness, I just can't follow the explanatory steps, particularly in the case of life which you say is up for debate. The fact that you use words like 'probably' indicates that there is no real certainty over anything in this field at all.
With single-celled organisms and suchlike we can say that life must come from 'x' because a cell can be broken down chemically in all its parts. But we don't actually know how. Just the manner in which chemicals react and develop. If we could explain it fully then I would have thought scientists would be geared towards a life-creating project that extends beyond the synthetic DNA already created.


You mean like clonning real live animals ?

 


"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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EaglesEaglesEagles Flag 20 Mar 15 10.22am Send a Private Message to EaglesEaglesEagles Add EaglesEaglesEagles as a friend

Quote dannyh at 20 Mar 2015 10.11am

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 20 Mar 2015 10.07am

Just for the record jamie, I personally can't get my head round a lot of what you're explaining. It isn't stubbornness, I just can't follow the explanatory steps, particularly in the case of life which you say is up for debate. The fact that you use words like 'probably' indicates that there is no real certainty over anything in this field at all.
With single-celled organisms and suchlike we can say that life must come from 'x' because a cell can be broken down chemically in all its parts. But we don't actually know how. Just the manner in which chemicals react and develop. If we could explain it fully then I would have thought scientists would be geared towards a life-creating project that extends beyond the synthetic DNA already created.


You mean like clonning real live animals ?


No, creating life out of nothing by taking all the necessary elements or chemicals or whatever and producing it in cellular form in a lab. Like life when it starts. Not copying. I'm no scientist but if we can explain the theory of life at a single-cellular level, should it not also be possible to play God and create our own before moving on to more complex organisms?

 


I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry.

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dannyh Flag wherever I lay my hat....... 20 Mar 15 10.50am Send a Private Message to dannyh Add dannyh as a friend

I Get where your coming from, but the fact we can now cross DNA with Goats and spiders so that the milk they produce provides the proteins required to make copious amounts of spider silk (stronger than steel cable) is fairly impressive and shows a unique ability by man to command his surroundings.

And if you have the money you can specify what colour eyes you would like your unborn child to be, even what sex, if that isn't understanding a little of how life is created then I dont know what is.

But whats really going to blow your noodle is the possibility that 3d printer technology is not that far away from making live organs for transplant from human endothelial cells,

[Link]

That to me is actually playing God, but you will I'm sure have your own theory on it

 


"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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Ouzo Dan Flag Behind you 20 Mar 15 11.34am Send a Private Message to Ouzo Dan Add Ouzo Dan as a friend

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 20 Mar 2015 10.22am

Quote dannyh at 20 Mar 2015 10.11am

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 20 Mar 2015 10.07am

Just for the record jamie, I personally can't get my head round a lot of what you're explaining. It isn't stubbornness, I just can't follow the explanatory steps, particularly in the case of life which you say is up for debate. The fact that you use words like 'probably' indicates that there is no real certainty over anything in this field at all.
With single-celled organisms and suchlike we can say that life must come from 'x' because a cell can be broken down chemically in all its parts. But we don't actually know how. Just the manner in which chemicals react and develop. If we could explain it fully then I would have thought scientists would be geared towards a life-creating project that extends beyond the synthetic DNA already created.


You mean like clonning real live animals ?


No, creating life out of nothing by taking all the necessary elements or chemicals or whatever and producing it in cellular form in a lab. Like life when it starts. Not copying. I'm no scientist but if we can explain the theory of life at a single-cellular level, should it not also be possible to play God and create our own before moving on to more complex organisms?

We have done, to a point, its not biological but it is undeniably life.

I posted this recently
[Link]

This is a Robot that is made out of Lego, what is Extraordinary about this robot is we have digitized the brain of a worm & put it in this robot. What you are seeing isnt just a silly plastic toy rolling about on the floor but a conscious creature encountering its environment for the first time.

It is Alive & we made it.

 


The mountains are calling & I must go.

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EaglesEaglesEagles Flag 20 Mar 15 11.40am Send a Private Message to EaglesEaglesEagles Add EaglesEaglesEagles as a friend

Quote Ouzo Dan at 20 Mar 2015 11.34am

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 20 Mar 2015 10.22am

Quote dannyh at 20 Mar 2015 10.11am

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 20 Mar 2015 10.07am

Just for the record jamie, I personally can't get my head round a lot of what you're explaining. It isn't stubbornness, I just can't follow the explanatory steps, particularly in the case of life which you say is up for debate. The fact that you use words like 'probably' indicates that there is no real certainty over anything in this field at all.
With single-celled organisms and suchlike we can say that life must come from 'x' because a cell can be broken down chemically in all its parts. But we don't actually know how. Just the manner in which chemicals react and develop. If we could explain it fully then I would have thought scientists would be geared towards a life-creating project that extends beyond the synthetic DNA already created.


You mean like clonning real live animals ?


No, creating life out of nothing by taking all the necessary elements or chemicals or whatever and producing it in cellular form in a lab. Like life when it starts. Not copying. I'm no scientist but if we can explain the theory of life at a single-cellular level, should it not also be possible to play God and create our own before moving on to more complex organisms?

We have done, to a point, its not biological but it is undeniably life.

I posted this recently
[Link]

This is a Robot that is made out of Lego, what is Extraordinary about this robot is we have digitized the brain of a worm & put it in this robot. What you are seeing isnt just a silly plastic toy rolling about on the floor but a conscious creature encountering its environment for the first time.

It is Alive & we made it.

I don't deny that, but isn't the brain still a copy of something already existent? Brain signals have been mapped and replicated for ages. What I'm suggesting is creating life from base chemicals or elements or whatever. If it can't be done by us, surely there's no way of proving there wasn't a helping hand?
I'm genuinely not trying to be obstinate for the sake of it.


Edited by EaglesEaglesEagles (20 Mar 2015 11.41am)

 


I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry.

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Moose Flag In the sewer pipe... 20 Mar 15 12.18pm Send a Private Message to Moose Add Moose as a friend

Quote dannyh at 20 Mar 2015 10.50am

I Get where your coming from, but the fact we can now cross DNA with Goats and spiders so that the milk they produce provides the proteins required to make copious amounts of spider silk (stronger than steel cable) is fairly impressive and shows a unique ability by man to command his surroundings.


There'll be Spider-Goats terrorising people on the Yorkshire Moors before long, you mark my words. Then there'll be an American Spider-Goat in London. This is our terrifying future.

 


Goodness is what you do. Not who you pray to.

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 20 Mar 15 2.07pm

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 20 Mar 2015 10.07am

Just for the record jamie, I personally can't get my head round a lot of what you're explaining. It isn't stubbornness, I just can't follow the explanatory steps, particularly in the case of life which you say is up for debate. The fact that you use words like 'probably' indicates that there is no real certainty over anything in this field at all.
With single-celled organisms and suchlike we can say that life must come from 'x' because a cell can be broken down chemically in all its parts. But we don't actually know how. Just the manner in which chemicals react and develop. If we could explain it fully then I would have thought scientists would be geared towards a life-creating project that extends beyond the synthetic DNA already created.

The question you then have to ask is which is more likely. RNA is a reactive chemical, which is essential to what constitutes life forms.

That account of the Christian Genesis is true, or more or less accountable, or that cellular life forms initially occurred through the formation of the RNA chemical accidently, and that in combination with proteins (formed by amino acids) formed the first proto-cellular life forms. There are more than 500 different amino acids, and they are present in all life forms as the second most common component after water.

Cells also seem to be largely proteins, RNA, and amino acid based compounds (and its likely that DNA itself is an evolutionary development, as its necessary for sexual reproduction).

I very much doubt human beings will ever be able to reconstruct life forms in the manner of 3.5bn plus years ago, we'd be much more likely to construct lifeforms through genetic manipulation of DNA (after all creating an unevolved 3.5bn year old proto-cellular lifeform isn't really much use - you'd effectively have to wait millions of years for your first 'true lifeform'.

Importantly, amino acids also play very essential roles in all manner of different types of cell.

That doesn't dismiss the idea of a god, but the model proscribed in the bible becomes rather questionable when faced with the evidence, that God created the first life form 3.5bn years ago, but only decided to create man about 200m years ago.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Ouzo Dan Flag Behind you 20 Mar 15 2.21pm Send a Private Message to Ouzo Dan Add Ouzo Dan as a friend

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 20 Mar 2015 11.40am

Quote Ouzo Dan at 20 Mar 2015 11.34am

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 20 Mar 2015 10.22am

Quote dannyh at 20 Mar 2015 10.11am

Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 20 Mar 2015 10.07am

Just for the record jamie, I personally can't get my head round a lot of what you're explaining. It isn't stubbornness, I just can't follow the explanatory steps, particularly in the case of life which you say is up for debate. The fact that you use words like 'probably' indicates that there is no real certainty over anything in this field at all.
With single-celled organisms and suchlike we can say that life must come from 'x' because a cell can be broken down chemically in all its parts. But we don't actually know how. Just the manner in which chemicals react and develop. If we could explain it fully then I would have thought scientists would be geared towards a life-creating project that extends beyond the synthetic DNA already created.


You mean like clonning real live animals ?


No, creating life out of nothing by taking all the necessary elements or chemicals or whatever and producing it in cellular form in a lab. Like life when it starts. Not copying. I'm no scientist but if we can explain the theory of life at a single-cellular level, should it not also be possible to play God and create our own before moving on to more complex organisms?

We have done, to a point, its not biological but it is undeniably life.

I posted this recently
[Link]

This is a Robot that is made out of Lego, what is Extraordinary about this robot is we have digitized the brain of a worm & put it in this robot. What you are seeing isnt just a silly plastic toy rolling about on the floor but a conscious creature encountering its environment for the first time.

It is Alive & we made it.

I don't deny that, but isn't the brain still a copy of something already existent? Brain signals have been mapped and replicated for ages. What I'm suggesting is creating life from base chemicals or elements or whatever. If it can't be done by us, surely there's no way of proving there wasn't a helping hand?
I'm genuinely not trying to be obstinate for the sake of it.


Edited by EaglesEaglesEagles (20 Mar 2015 11.41am)

We used a Worms brain as a benchmark but it is very much its own mechanical worm created by us.

Also we have been taking Elemental gases & turning them into organic molecules since the 50's I'll let our Lord & Saviour Carl Sagan explain
[Link]
From here its simply a case of putting these molecules together to form simple life forms.

We are painfully close to creating life, DNA is effectively billions of strands of 1's & 0's in sequence, we are trying to create something in a laboratory in what 80? years that evolution has taken millions actually billions of years to achieve.
In the future our high school science classes will have students sit down & assemble DNA & molecules into into lifeforms & no one will bat and eyelid.

We are also painfully close to being a type 1 Civilization part of that will be controlling our weather. Surely weather control is a god like thing for humans to do?


Edited by Ouzo Dan (20 Mar 2015 2.25pm)

 


The mountains are calling & I must go.

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