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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 4.48pm | |
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Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.21pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.12pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.06pm
Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.01pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 3.59pm
How many more times does someone have to say it. It's not a tax
This is a discussion with you. You started the thread with a title Bedroom Tax. It is by no definition a tax. The newspapers know this. Ed millibandwagon knows this, and you know this. But you and the press and millibandwagon and chums continue to use it to give someone a kicking. Because you know full well by saying it's a tax people will get upset and it may swing their vote. It is far less likely if you told them the truth. We expect mp's to lie. We expect the press to lie. We even expect estate agents to lie. What is your reason? Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm) Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)
Do you really need a history lesson here or are you just trying to get a rise. You know full well the Poll tax is a tax as opposed to this engineered non tax the Bedroom tax. Also the Poll tax (and riots in 90) saw the end of Thatcher (which a poll showed only 12% supported) and Major announced immediately that it was scrapped. And more importantly pillock Kinnock was leader of Labour at the time which needs no explanation attatched. Also the tories did lose seats and a small percentage of the vote at the next election (although more people voted for them and in general at that election).
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 4.50pm | |
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Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.11pm
This bill is not the smartest way to cut benefits / save money but what really grinds my gears Nick is that you always seem to want to punish people who have done well.
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Stuk Top half 21 Feb 13 5.00pm | |
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Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.48pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.21pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.12pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.06pm
Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.01pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 3.59pm
How many more times does someone have to say it. It's not a tax
This is a discussion with you. You started the thread with a title Bedroom Tax. It is by no definition a tax. The newspapers know this. Ed millibandwagon knows this, and you know this. But you and the press and millibandwagon and chums continue to use it to give someone a kicking. Because you know full well by saying it's a tax people will get upset and it may swing their vote. It is far less likely if you told them the truth. We expect mp's to lie. We expect the press to lie. We even expect estate agents to lie. What is your reason? Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm) Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)
Do you really need a history lesson here or are you just trying to get a rise. You know full well the Poll tax is a tax as opposed to this engineered non tax the Bedroom tax. Also the Poll tax (and riots in 90) saw the end of Thatcher (which a poll showed only 12% supported) and Major announced immediately that it was scrapped. And more importantly pillock Kinnock was leader of Labour at the time which needs no explanation attatched. Also the tories did lose seats and a small percentage of the vote at the next election (although more people voted for them and in general at that election).
Labelling it a tax when it isn't, whether you do it or the media, detracts the point of the debate entirely as that is the crux of it.
Optimistic as ever |
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 5.06pm | |
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Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 4.05pm
It is absolute bollocks that 25-30% of the children anywhere in the UK are in actual poverty, not the lack of PC/Broadband/Sky definition, the actual unclean, unclothed and unfed definition. Why do you swallow such nonsense, nick? I got my info from here [Link] Child poverty has no hard and fast definition... from [Link] The European Union's working definition of poverty is: 'Persons, families and groups of persons whose resources (material, cultural and social) are so limited as to exclude them from the minimum acceptable way of life in the Member State to which they belong'. The UK Government, following the consultation on "Measuring Child Poverty", set out three approaches to examining and measuring child poverty in the UK over time: Absolute low income: this indicator measures whether the poorest families are seeing their income rise in real terms. The level is fixed as equal to the relative low-income threshold for the baseline year of 1998-99 expressed in today's prices; Relative low income: this measures whether the poorest families are keeping pace with the growth of incomes in the economy as a whole. This indicator measures the number of children living in households below 60 % of contemporary median equivalised household income. It compares the incomes of the less well off in a society to that of the 'typical household' so threshold changes as wealth of society changes ('moving poverty line'). Material deprivation and low income combined: this indicator provides a wider measure of people's living standards. This indicator measures the number of children living in households that are both materially deprived and have an income below 70% of contemporary median equivalised household income. Material deprivation looks at living standards such as: A holiday away from home at least one week a year with family
So no mention of Sky/Broadband etc, however if you think that everyone has Sky /cable or broadband then you are blinkered. [Link] While the majority of people in the UK have access to the internet, there are still 10 million people who do not. Of these people, 4 million are are the most socially and economically disadvantaged in the country. 49% of people without access are in the lowest socio-economic groups (DE) It has to be said that this research was carried out in 2009 so not entirely accurate, but I'm sure it's still a fairly reasonable representation. Edited by nickgusset (21 Feb 2013 5.10pm)
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 5.09pm | |
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Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 5.00pm
Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.48pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.21pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.12pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.06pm
Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.01pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 3.59pm
How many more times does someone have to say it. It's not a tax
This is a discussion with you. You started the thread with a title Bedroom Tax. It is by no definition a tax. The newspapers know this. Ed millibandwagon knows this, and you know this. But you and the press and millibandwagon and chums continue to use it to give someone a kicking. Because you know full well by saying it's a tax people will get upset and it may swing their vote. It is far less likely if you told them the truth. We expect mp's to lie. We expect the press to lie. We even expect estate agents to lie. What is your reason? Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm) Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)
Do you really need a history lesson here or are you just trying to get a rise. You know full well the Poll tax is a tax as opposed to this engineered non tax the Bedroom tax. Also the Poll tax (and riots in 90) saw the end of Thatcher (which a poll showed only 12% supported) and Major announced immediately that it was scrapped. And more importantly pillock Kinnock was leader of Labour at the time which needs no explanation attatched. Also the tories did lose seats and a small percentage of the vote at the next election (although more people voted for them and in general at that election).
Labelling it a tax when it isn't, whether you do it or the media, detracts the point of the debate entirely as that is the crux of it. OK, in future when I refer to bedroom tax, I actually mean the reduction of benefits due to having a spare room(s).
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Johnny Eagles berlin 21 Feb 13 5.11pm | |
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Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 3.55pm
Labour (much as I deplore them) did a lot t get thousands of children out of poverty. This is being reversed by the current lot. The bedroom 'tax' is going to affect children and the disabled, yet according to you, this cannot be mentioned in a debate about the effects because it is sentimental and devalues the argument. How can one argue against something with you Johnny if they are not allowed to mention the people it directly affects? I didn't say don't mention them. Just try and do so without all the heartstrings crap. Any cut to benefits causes people to lose money. Welcome to the real world. But picking on one individual case and using it to criticise a policy on the basis of emotion rather than reason and logic is sentimentalism, plain and simple. And how the f*ck did we get onto child poverty? I'll tell you how - because you randomly decided to whack it into the mix because you think it supports your point, when actually it’s irrelevant. Because your argument isn’t based on facts and logic, it’s based on painting the Coalition as milk-snatching, grandads-in-cupboards-locking villains. Oh and you can choose to believe as many statistics thrown at you by political parties as you like (“Labour reduced child poverty! Iron Production has reached all-time high!”) but I’m going to take them with a mountain of salt, thank you.
...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread... |
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JL85 London,SE9 21 Feb 13 5.12pm | |
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And now thede bums have a reason to churn out more kids....
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 5.26pm | |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 21 Feb 2013 5.11pm
Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 3.55pm
Labour (much as I deplore them) did a lot t get thousands of children out of poverty. This is being reversed by the current lot. The bedroom 'tax' is going to affect children and the disabled, yet according to you, this cannot be mentioned in a debate about the effects because it is sentimental and devalues the argument. How can one argue against something with you Johnny if they are not allowed to mention the people it directly affects? I didn't say don't mention them. Just try and do so without all the heartstrings crap. Any cut to benefits causes people to lose money. Welcome to the real world. But picking on one individual case and using it to criticise a policy on the basis of emotion rather than reason and logic is sentimentalism, plain and simple. And how the f*ck did we get onto child poverty? I'll tell you how - because you randomly decided to whack it into the mix because you think it supports your point, when actually it’s irrelevant. Because your argument isn’t based on facts and logic, it’s based on painting the Coalition as milk-snatching, grandads-in-cupboards-locking villains. Oh and you can choose to believe as many statistics thrown at you by political parties as you like (“Labour reduced child poverty! Iron Production has reached all-time high!”) but I’m going to take them with a mountain of salt, thank you.
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Stuk Top half 21 Feb 13 6.30pm | |
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Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 5.06pm
Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 4.05pm
It is absolute bollocks that 25-30% of the children anywhere in the UK are in actual poverty, not the lack of PC/Broadband/Sky definition, the actual unclean, unclothed and unfed definition. Why do you swallow such nonsense, nick? I got my info from here [Link] Child poverty has no hard and fast definition... from [Link] The European Union's working definition of poverty is: 'Persons, families and groups of persons whose resources (material, cultural and social) are so limited as to exclude them from the minimum acceptable way of life in the Member State to which they belong'. The UK Government, following the consultation on "Measuring Child Poverty", set out three approaches to examining and measuring child poverty in the UK over time: Absolute low income: this indicator measures whether the poorest families are seeing their income rise in real terms. The level is fixed as equal to the relative low-income threshold for the baseline year of 1998-99 expressed in today's prices; Relative low income: this measures whether the poorest families are keeping pace with the growth of incomes in the economy as a whole. This indicator measures the number of children living in households below 60 % of contemporary median equivalised household income. It compares the incomes of the less well off in a society to that of the 'typical household' so threshold changes as wealth of society changes ('moving poverty line'). Material deprivation and low income combined: this indicator provides a wider measure of people's living standards. This indicator measures the number of children living in households that are both materially deprived and have an income below 70% of contemporary median equivalised household income. Material deprivation looks at living standards such as: A holiday away from home at least one week a year with family
So no mention of Sky/Broadband etc, however if you think that everyone has Sky /cable or broadband then you are blinkered. [Link] While the majority of people in the UK have access to the internet, there are still 10 million people who do not. Of these people, 4 million are are the most socially and economically disadvantaged in the country. 49% of people without access are in the lowest socio-economic groups (DE) It has to be said that this research was carried out in 2009 so not entirely accurate, but I'm sure it's still a fairly reasonable representation. Edited by nickgusset (21 Feb 2013 5.10pm)
All the bits in bold are just plucked out of thin air, none define poverty.
Optimistic as ever |
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Stuk Top half 21 Feb 13 6.33pm | |
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Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 5.09pm
Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 5.00pm
Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.48pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.21pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.12pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.06pm
Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.01pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 3.59pm
How many more times does someone have to say it. It's not a tax
This is a discussion with you. You started the thread with a title Bedroom Tax. It is by no definition a tax. The newspapers know this. Ed millibandwagon knows this, and you know this. But you and the press and millibandwagon and chums continue to use it to give someone a kicking. Because you know full well by saying it's a tax people will get upset and it may swing their vote. It is far less likely if you told them the truth. We expect mp's to lie. We expect the press to lie. We even expect estate agents to lie. What is your reason? Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm) Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)
Do you really need a history lesson here or are you just trying to get a rise. You know full well the Poll tax is a tax as opposed to this engineered non tax the Bedroom tax. Also the Poll tax (and riots in 90) saw the end of Thatcher (which a poll showed only 12% supported) and Major announced immediately that it was scrapped. And more importantly pillock Kinnock was leader of Labour at the time which needs no explanation attatched. Also the tories did lose seats and a small percentage of the vote at the next election (although more people voted for them and in general at that election).
Labelling it a tax when it isn't, whether you do it or the media, detracts the point of the debate entirely as that is the crux of it. OK, in future when I refer to bedroom tax, I actually mean the reduction of benefits due to having a spare room(s). Just don't refer to it at all, none of us are buying that it will f*** up the lives of the disabled, elderly, armed services or children etc apart from you.
Optimistic as ever |
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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 21 Feb 13 6.42pm | |
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Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.21pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.12pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 4.06pm
Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.01pm
Quote UnbornShaitan at 21 Feb 2013 3.59pm
How many more times does someone have to say it. It's not a tax
This is a discussion with you. You started the thread with a title Bedroom Tax. It is by no definition a tax. The newspapers know this. Ed millibandwagon knows this, and you know this. But you and the press and millibandwagon and chums continue to use it to give someone a kicking. Because you know full well by saying it's a tax people will get upset and it may swing their vote. It is far less likely if you told them the truth. We expect mp's to lie. We expect the press to lie. We even expect estate agents to lie. What is your reason? Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm) Edited by UnbornShaitan (21 Feb 2013 4.08pm)
Do you really need a history lesson here or are you just trying to get a rise. You know full well the Poll tax is a tax as opposed to this engineered non tax the Bedroom tax. Also the Poll tax (and riots in 90) saw the end of Thatcher (which a poll showed only 12% supported) and Major announced immediately that it was scrapped. And more importantly pillock Kinnock was leader of Labour at the time which needs no explanation attatched. Also the tories did lose seats and a small percentage of the vote at the next election (although more people voted for them and in general at that election).
I was referring to the fact that the name that the press attribute is all important i.e. the press and the Opposition referred to the Community Charge as the "Poll Tax" (please note use of quotation marks as it was never actually called that)Once that happened the Tories didn't stand a chance even though everyone accpeted that the Rates system was archaic and unworkable.
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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 21 Feb 13 6.46pm | |
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Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.50pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.11pm
This bill is not the smartest way to cut benefits / save money but what really grinds my gears Nick is that you always seem to want to punish people who have done well.
"Many second properties lay empty. Compulsory purchase them and use them as social housing. It's a travesty that there are more housing spaces than people who require housing, it's just they cant access them."
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