So Israel made their bed then? Is that what you are inferring?
The Palestinian people voted for a terrorist organisation to rule them. Think about why they did that. There can be one reason alone and poirot isn’t needed to answer that.
I will in layman’s terms say that Hamas are anti israel as are all Muslims so they got the gig. You still cannot grasp how much the west is hated by 400 million Muslims as a lower figure. The peaceful majority of 1.3 billion don’t matter. Watch the video I posted on another thread to actually grasp that prior, to trying to make it for others to feel guilty.

Israel contributed to creating the circumstances in which Hamas emerged and have consistently treated Gaza with contempt. Hamas started as a political alternative to Fatah and their military organisation gradually became dominant. The people did not vote for terrorism. The people have not been given an opportunity to vote them out since they gained power, but their popularity had waned considerably, so should any vote be held they would lose, although after the last few weeks that may no longer be true.

I don’t suppose many Muslims have too much sympathy for the State of Israel but most are peace loving pragmatists and not terrorists. There are plenty of peace loving, secular Jews who feel the same way. It’s when the extremes hold power, as they currently do, that this is the result.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Totally agree.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

The “special relationship” transcends any Presidency or UK government.

It is my belief that some kind of commitment was made by Churchill when the USA entered WW2. I have no evidence for that other than the way we behave.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

The two nations at the time of WW2 were very different countries to now.....thanks to certain political directions.

The 'special relationship' is essentially a client relationship where we do what America tell us to do....thanks to us losing our power due to the world wars...the second being the icing on the cake.

They didn't even support us during the Falklands war and stayed neutral and that was even during the political love-in between Reagan and Thatcher.

We followed them into any conflict that they desired help in....Apart from Wilson bucking the trend with Vietnam.

Our relationship with America should be affected by its attitude towards us.....Biden has been very insulting to us and quite frankly we shouldn't just meekly take it.

Like I say, we shouldn't work against America, but that doesn't mean we have to follow them down some decidedly ethically dodgey paths.

Just my view.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2023 10.44pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

The Nazis never received more than 33 percent of the vote....that didn't save the 67 percent who didn't vote for them from any bombs or rape and murder during their occupation.

There are no goodies and baddies in war....that's a myth that gets sold for people to justify ending people they don't know.

I'm a European, I can only justify that on the battlefield amongst soldiers who sign up to fight other soldiers. When it comes to bombing cities like both sides did in WW2 or the killing of civilians that Hamas or the IDF do....I'm not going to bat for that.

If I were Jewish or Palestinian I can understand that as a lot of them will be, 'this is existential and its my tribe right or wrong'...(along the it's them or us principle)...I understand that....but it's essentially the same argument Hitler and Stalin used.

Spicy....and terminal if you're on the end of that.

There will be significant numbers of Palestinians who aren't for Hamas, however I doubt there are many, if any, who are fond of Israel. And while you are picking dead children up from rubble I doubt many will be nit picking.

The nature and cost both human and economic of war is so high that....in my view.....it's only worth engagement in if it's existential....If it isn't that then some form of peace has to be found.

Because while you may engage in war, that doesn't mean you are going to win it....That comes down to the common sense and competence of your leaders to properly gauge what that requires against the cost.

I understand the Israeli/Palestinian war, because it fits the existential narrative for both.

However, other wars can become more of a virtue signal and far more contentious.

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Nov 2023 1.22am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)