Margaret Thatcher

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Margaret Thatcher

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Johnny Eagles berlin 10 Apr 13 3.34pm
Quote nickgusset at 10 Apr 2013 12.15am Quote Johnny Eagles at 10 Apr 2013 12.07am Quote nickgusset at 09 Apr 2013 10.39pm I wish that when Thatcher shut the pits, she utilised the workforce and developed a manufacturing industry borne out of renewable energy, that way. Says the guy who thinks we should "look beyond the news" and not be "spoonfed"! Ridiculous. How realistic was that kind of policy in mid-80s Britain? She arguably went too far in crushing the unions (though she certainly had popular support). She was certainly helped by that arrogant, bloody-minded idiot Scargill. But closing the mines to institute an enlightened, renewables-based industrial policy? That option was never on the table, mate, and it's anachronistic to pretend it was. Fair point, but she didn't try and replace it with anything did she? Nick, I'm not sure how worthwhile it is to reply to this because: 1. the economic arguments on this thread have rarely got above the level of over-simplistic, one-sided propaganda and; 2. you yourself have a tendency to invite a response and then shift the goalposts or deflect rather than engage properly with the answer. So I'll just briefly say this: The premise of your question, that she "didn't try and replace it" shows a (deliberate?) misunderstanding of basic Thatcherism. She saw it as her job NOT to replace anything, but to get out the way and let the market do its magic. As for the rest, at the risk of dishing out yet more over-simplified cliches, I think some of the economic legacy was very good (more competitive economy and more prosperity than if the 'Left' had been in charge) and some was pretty bad (oil money and privatisation revenues wasted on a short-term house price boom). ...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...
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Johnny Eagles

berlin 10 Apr 13 3.34pm

Quote nickgusset at 10 Apr 2013 12.15am

Quote Johnny Eagles at 10 Apr 2013 12.07am

Quote nickgusset at 09 Apr 2013 10.39pm

I wish that when Thatcher shut the pits, she utilised the workforce and developed a manufacturing industry borne out of renewable energy, that way.

Says the guy who thinks we should "look beyond the news" and not be "spoonfed"!

Ridiculous. How realistic was that kind of policy in mid-80s Britain?

She arguably went too far in crushing the unions (though she certainly had popular support). She was certainly helped by that arrogant, bloody-minded idiot Scargill. But closing the mines to institute an enlightened, renewables-based industrial policy? That option was never on the table, mate, and it's anachronistic to pretend it was.

Fair point, but she didn't try and replace it with anything did she?

Nick, I'm not sure how worthwhile it is to reply to this because:

1. the economic arguments on this thread have rarely got above the level of over-simplistic, one-sided propaganda and;

2. you yourself have a tendency to invite a response and then shift the goalposts or deflect rather than engage properly with the answer.

So I'll just briefly say this:

The premise of your question, that she "didn't try and replace it" shows a (deliberate?) misunderstanding of basic Thatcherism. She saw it as her job NOT to replace anything, but to get out the way and let the market do its magic.

As for the rest, at the risk of dishing out yet more over-simplified cliches, I think some of the economic legacy was very good (more competitive economy and more prosperity than if the 'Left' had been in charge) and some was pretty bad (oil money and privatisation revenues wasted on a short-term house price boom).

...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...

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Kermit8 Hevon 10 Apr 13 3.36pm
Quote Willo at 10 Apr 2013 3.31pm Quote Fair enough. I meant 1881 anyway. typo. Born in 1952, the year of the great smog of London. And the year of the death of Albert Einstein. The case against reincarnation, m'lud Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 10 Apr 13 3.36pm

Quote Willo at 10 Apr 2013 3.31pm

Quote

Fair enough. I meant 1881 anyway. typo.

Born in 1952, the year of the great smog of London.

And the year of the death of Albert Einstein.

The case against reincarnation, m'lud

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 10 Apr 13 3.38pm
Let the market do the magic... Tis a shame that the current lot, and opposition, follow this flawed logic.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 10 Apr 13 3.38pm

Let the market do the magic... Tis a shame that the current lot, and opposition, follow this flawed logic.

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Stuk Top half 10 Apr 13 3.51pm
Quote nickgusset at 10 Apr 2013 3.24pm Why, the teachers pension fund is in rude health. It seems like people have run out of good things to say about Thatch, seeing as this has turned into a have a go at Gusset fest. Poor debating skills and a lack of arguments always leads to personal attacks I've found. That sums up all your posts for weeks now sunshine. It wasn't a personal attack either on your pension, it was what should apply to all public pensions. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 10 Apr 13 3.51pm

Quote nickgusset at 10 Apr 2013 3.24pm

Why, the teachers pension fund is in rude health.

It seems like people have run out of good things to say about Thatch, seeing as this has turned into a have a go at Gusset fest.
Poor debating skills and a lack of arguments always leads to personal attacks I've found.

That sums up all your posts for weeks now sunshine.

It wasn't a personal attack either on your pension, it was what should apply to all public pensions.

Optimistic as ever

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SpikeyMatt Fishing for condiments 10 Apr 13 3.51pm
Quote The Sash at 10 Apr 2013 3.33pm Quote SpikeyMatt at 10 Apr 2013 3.21pm I think we've now reached the thread's Thatcheration point. Three days and thats the best you can come up with I'm out of my depth on this thread so here's a picture of a an inbred cat. Attachment: cat bread rawr.jpg (37.33Kb) Twitter! [Tweet Link] Justin Bieber: the singing amoeba
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SpikeyMatt

Fishing for condiments 10 Apr 13 3.51pm

Quote The Sash at 10 Apr 2013 3.33pm

Quote SpikeyMatt at 10 Apr 2013 3.21pm

I think we've now reached the thread's Thatcheration point.

Three days and thats the best you can come up with

I'm out of my depth on this thread so here's a picture of a an inbred cat.

Attachment: cat bread rawr.jpg (37.33Kb)

Twitter!

[Tweet Link]

Justin Bieber: the singing amoeba

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 10 Apr 13 3.53pm
Quote Stuk at 10 Apr 2013 3.51pm Quote nickgusset at 10 Apr 2013 3.24pm Why, the teachers pension fund is in rude health. It seems like people have run out of good things to say about Thatch, seeing as this has turned into a have a go at Gusset fest. Poor debating skills and a lack of arguments always leads to personal attacks I've found. That sums up all your posts for weeks now sunshine. It wasn't a personal attack either on your pension, it was what should apply to all public pensions. I wasn't referring to the pensions remark, it was the earlier stuff.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 10 Apr 13 3.53pm

Quote Stuk at 10 Apr 2013 3.51pm

Quote nickgusset at 10 Apr 2013 3.24pm

Why, the teachers pension fund is in rude health.

That sums up all your posts for weeks now sunshine.

It wasn't a personal attack either on your pension, it was what should apply to all public pensions.

I wasn't referring to the pensions remark, it was the earlier stuff.

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suicideatselhurst crawley 10 Apr 13 4.09pm
Anyone else going to her funeral on the 17th ?..........just me then. Theres someone in my head ... But its not me X/Box game Tag bazcpfc1961, clan (HMS)
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suicideatselhurst

crawley 10 Apr 13 4.09pm

Anyone else going to her funeral on the 17th ?..........just me then.

Theres someone in my head ... But its not me

X/Box game Tag bazcpfc1961, clan (HMS)

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chris123 hove actually 10 Apr 13 4.13pm
Quote crystal balls at 10 Apr 2013 11.55am Quote chris123 at 10 Apr 2013 7.54am Quote crystal balls at 09 Apr 2013 11.38pm Quote chris123 at 09 Apr 2013 10.56pm Quote crystal balls at 09 Apr 2013 10.11pm Quote chris123 at 09 Apr 2013 8.07pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Apr 2013 6.26pm Quote Willo at 09 Apr 2013 6.23pm Quote If you didnt know who she was but saw the list of 'anti's' getting their two penneth in over her corpse then you would have a natural instinct to be on her side purely because of the odious collection lining up I ask - Where does it come from, this vitriloic loathing? Anti-Thatcherites tell you that it’s because she closed down the old industries. (She didn’t, of course, she simply stopped obliging everyone else to support them.) Yet it must surely be patently obvious by now that nothing would have kept the dockyards and coalmines and steel mills open. A similar process of de-industrialisation has unfolded in every other Western European country, and the only parties that still talk of “reviving our manufacturing base” are Respect, the Scottish Socialists and the BNP !!!! RIP Willo Its not so much the closing down, its the manner in which they were closed down, and the population, few of whom voted conservative, were just left to deal with the fact that employment was ripped out almost overnight, leaving hundreds chasing single jobs. Uneconomic pits have routinely closed since the war, why should uneconomic mining be subsidised when no other industry was, and when from the 1960's we had the benefit ofNorth Sea oil and gas? Simply untrue! Although some exploration of oil and gas fields went on from 60s, the Brent field in UK waters wasn't even discovered until 1971, and the first oil wasn't pumped (at a relatively modest level initially) from the Argyl field until 1975. Revenue from the taxation of oil commenced in a significant way from 1980 onwards. The revenue from oil and the proceeds of privatisations could have been used b Hesletine to regenerate the country, but were instead used to fund income tax cuts for the higher paid instead. Edited by Moose (09 Apr 2013 10.24pm) West Sole came onstream in 1967. The income to the exchequer from West Sole was insignificant, as was the amount of gas it produced. Oil and gas revenues from licensing and taxation only made any difference from 1980 onward. The comment was that what I'd said was simply untrue, it was not untrue at all, and my point stands. The key word in your post is "benefit". I would suggest that it is untrue to say that we had the "benefit" of north sea oil and gas. There were in the 60's and 70's no actual material benefits of north sea oil and gas for the UK. Oil wasn't produced in any quantities as the technology for doing so at the depth of the north sea was in it's infancy, and many many lives were lost in securing what little production there was on line at that time. Gas was being produced in greater quantity, but as almost all gas appliances had to be converted to be able to use natural gas at great cost, and relatively few people had gas central heating at that time, the benefits to consumers and the exchequer were, at best,at the margin. I didn't say material benefit, I said benefit.
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chris123

hove actually 10 Apr 13 4.13pm

Quote crystal balls at 10 Apr 2013 11.55am

Quote chris123 at 10 Apr 2013 7.54am

Quote crystal balls at 09 Apr 2013 11.38pm

Quote chris123 at 09 Apr 2013 10.56pm

Quote crystal balls at 09 Apr 2013 10.11pm

Quote chris123 at 09 Apr 2013 8.07pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Apr 2013 6.26pm

Quote Willo at 09 Apr 2013 6.23pm

Quote

If you didnt know who she was but saw the list of 'anti's' getting their two penneth in over her corpse then you would have a natural instinct to be on her side purely because of the odious collection lining up

I ask - Where does it come from, this vitriloic loathing? Anti-Thatcherites tell you that it’s because she closed down the old industries. (She didn’t, of course, she simply stopped obliging everyone else to support them.)

Yet it must surely be patently obvious by now that nothing would have kept the dockyards and coalmines and steel mills open. A similar process of de-industrialisation has unfolded in every other Western European country, and the only parties that still talk of “reviving our manufacturing base” are Respect, the Scottish Socialists and the BNP !!!!

RIP

Willo

Its not so much the closing down, its the manner in which they were closed down, and the population, few of whom voted conservative, were just left to deal with the fact that employment was ripped out almost overnight, leaving hundreds chasing single jobs.

Uneconomic pits have routinely closed since the war, why should uneconomic mining be subsidised when no other industry was, and when from the 1960's we had the benefit ofNorth Sea oil and gas?

Simply untrue! Although some exploration of oil and gas fields went on from 60s, the Brent field in UK waters wasn't even discovered until 1971, and the first oil wasn't pumped (at a relatively modest level initially) from the Argyl field until 1975. Revenue from the taxation of oil commenced in a significant way from 1980 onwards.

The revenue from oil and the proceeds of privatisations could have been used b Hesletine to regenerate the country, but were instead used to fund income tax cuts for the higher paid instead.

Edited by Moose (09 Apr 2013 10.24pm)

West Sole came onstream in 1967.

The income to the exchequer from West Sole was insignificant, as was the amount of gas it produced. Oil and gas revenues from licensing and taxation only made any difference from 1980 onward.

The comment was that what I'd said was simply untrue, it was not untrue at all, and my point stands.

The key word in your post is "benefit". I would suggest that it is untrue to say that we had the "benefit" of north sea oil and gas.

There were in the 60's and 70's no actual material benefits of north sea oil and gas for the UK. Oil wasn't produced in any quantities as the technology for doing so at the depth of the north sea was in it's infancy, and many many lives were lost in securing what little production there was on line at that time.

Gas was being produced in greater quantity, but as almost all gas appliances had to be converted to be able to use natural gas at great cost, and relatively few people had gas central heating at that time, the benefits to consumers and the exchequer were, at best,at the margin.

I didn't say material benefit, I said benefit.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Apr 13 4.30pm
Quote Stuk at 10 Apr 2013 3.15pm Quote nickgusset at 10 Apr 2013 3.13pm Quote Johnny Eagles at 10 Apr 2013 3.06pm Quote nickgusset at 10 Apr 2013 10.35am I don't want to pay for her funeral. A lot of people don't want to pay for your pension. Terms an conditions of employment. If you want me to sort out my own pension, give me a pay rise commensurate with the payments. Or don't you think those that work for the public should be looked after in old age? Anyway, yer changing the subject. Just heard Milliband, what a wormy c*, he should be unleashing the wrath on behalf of the millions who will never forgive her. You should get the same state pension as the rest of us and your own personal plan if you want it. People who signed a contracted work pension plan should get what was contracted. Its not their fault that the assorted employers got it wrong. Same with salary, if I signed a contract for x amount a year, they shouldn't be pressred into accepting less because other people have fKed up. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 10 Apr 13 4.30pm

Quote Stuk at 10 Apr 2013 3.15pm

Quote nickgusset at 10 Apr 2013 3.13pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 10 Apr 2013 3.06pm

Quote nickgusset at 10 Apr 2013 10.35am

I don't want to pay for her funeral.

A lot of people don't want to pay for your pension.

Terms an conditions of employment. If you want me to sort out my own pension, give me a pay rise commensurate with the payments. Or don't you think those that work for the public should be looked after in old age?
Anyway, yer changing the subject.

Just heard Milliband, what a wormy c***, he should be unleashing the wrath on behalf of the millions who will never forgive her.

You should get the same state pension as the rest of us and your own personal plan if you want it.

People who signed a contracted work pension plan should get what was contracted. Its not their fault that the assorted employers got it wrong.

Same with salary, if I signed a contract for x amount a year, they shouldn't be pressred into accepting less because other people have f**Ked up.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Apr 13 4.33pm
Quote suicideatselhurst at 10 Apr 2013 4.09pm Anyone else going to her funeral on the 17th ?..........just me then. And about 10,000 riot cops, two dissident IRA groups. I'm thinking I might go. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 10 Apr 13 4.33pm

Quote suicideatselhurst at 10 Apr 2013 4.09pm

Anyone else going to her funeral on the 17th ?..........just me then.

And about 10,000 riot cops, two dissident IRA groups. I'm thinking I might go.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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chris123 hove actually 10 Apr 13 4.34pm
Quote Willo at 10 Apr 2013 1.57pm Quote Jimenez .....awaits link from The Ciabatta Bread famine of Chislehurst circa 1987.... I used to enjoy many a good wine and beer in Chislehurst in the 80s and 90s at the 'Bull' and 'Tigers Head' Also frequented the 'Sydney Arms' on a few occasions. And the Rambler's - tv guys used to show up on budget day to gauge views on the penny on a pint.
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chris123

hove actually 10 Apr 13 4.34pm

Quote Willo at 10 Apr 2013 1.57pm

Quote Jimenez
.....awaits link from The Ciabatta Bread famine of Chislehurst circa 1987....

I used to enjoy many a good wine and beer in Chislehurst in the 80s and 90s at the 'Bull' and 'Tigers Head' Also frequented the 'Sydney Arms' on a few occasions.

And the Rambler's - tv guys used to show up on budget day to gauge views on the penny on a pint.

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rednblue4eva Norwood 10 Apr 13 4.36pm
Quote Bin Liner at 08 Apr 2013 9.32pm Quote rednblue4eva at 08 Apr 2013 8.43pm I was on a safety course at work & to give us something to think about the trainer said there are hundreds of men who owe their lives to Maggie When asked how he pointed out the death rate of miners was hundreds a year, she closed the mines so the miners didn't die They have no jobs but are still alive a plain daft statement, might as well commend a prime minister who outlaws the motor vehicle Edited by Bin Liner (08 Apr 2013 9.34pm) He used it to show how you can put a "spin" on anything - daft, but correct
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rednblue4eva

Norwood 10 Apr 13 4.36pm