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Originally posted by Nicholas91
I remember having a conversation with a few young(ish) away fans on the train following us beating Villa 3-1 at Selhurst Park a couple seasons ago. I told them I was a huge fan of Gerrard the player but their team looked far less than the sum of their parts and I believed Gerrard to be the problem. They agreed, Villa sacked Gerrard, appointed Emery and the rest is history. That's just one example but there are plenty more where a manager is the problem and a change may be necessary. If we are losing most of our matches, scoring less than everyone else, turning up to away games like at the Emirates and not even trying, players are voicing their discontent, we can't fashion chances or defend set pieces, amongst other things, the manager has to shoulder that blame. If it aint broke don't fix it, if it is, fix it. We can all voice our subjective football opinions and they can be lazily rubbished but the facts speak for themselves. It doesn't excuse the players, it doesn't excuse the lack of investment in the team, it doesn't excuse bad decision making, but it is the one thing that's probably easiest and quickest to change in order to salvage our absolutely dismal bombing this season. Or to make it devastatingly, irreversibly worse. As the posts above point out, far more people have changed managers on the way to relegation than on the way into Europe. Again, in our case, it depends on whether you think the players are underperforming for their level of ability and/or that the same players are capable of playing a noticeably better style of football. I don't see any reason to think that. I also don't see our position as dire (it is much the same as it always is - we are hardly in uncharted territory here). For those two reasons, I wouldn't take the significant gamble of making a change. Edited by TheBigToePunt (24 Jan 2024 12.33pm)
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Originally posted by TheBigToePunt
It continues to baffle me that anyone thinks a different manager would get a noticeably better tune out of the same set of players. Thats better, rather than just different. I'm sure if we appointed Roberto Martinez he would be determined to play a different brand of football, but that doesn't make the players any better, or any more suited to attacking or possession. We have two ball-playing centre-backs and two talented creative attacking midfielders (or one or none quite often depending on injury). Otherwise, we have the same type of top-flight journeyman pros we have always had. So, exactly whose 'potential' is being held back by Roy here?! Is it Mateta? Is he secretly fast and skilful? Or Ayew? Is he in fact able to take the ball on the turn and pass forward quickly and with quality instead of trying to win free-kicks? Is it Ward, or Clyne? Are they just bursting to overlap to great effect but being restrained, not by ability and age, but by dastardly Roy? Maybe it's Lerma, who in his very prime and available for free was of no interest whatsoever to the big clubs? Or Hughes? Or Schlupp?! We have the squad that we have, which is largely the best we can afford and attract. We might get a tiny 'new manager bounce' if we made a change in the dugout now, although we might just as easily go into freefall. Most relegated clubs have two or three managers over the course of the season, as they thrash about in panic.
The difference this season is that because Olise and Eze have been injured for intervals, he's reverted to type and just tries to keep a clean sheet for 70 minutes before making an attacking change and trying to nick it. This is shown by the fact that we have only scored 7 goals in the first half, a total lower than every team bar Luton and Sheff Utd. It's footballing rope-a-dope and we're not doing it well. We're not even as defensively resilient this season, something that Roy relies on to be effective. So far we've conceded 34 goals in 21 games, an average of 1.6 per game. Last season it was 49 in 38 games, an average of 1.29. We all know well that the lack of investment in the squad is the primary reason for our decline but Roy's tactics and formations have become so simple to telegraph that teams have worked us out, as one win in 12 proves. I think it's a very sad ending to Roy's time with us and in an ideal world he'd get us through to the end of the season, keep us up and have an amicable goodbye. But survival has to come first. I agree with a lot of what you say but there are good managers on the market at the moment who would be better long term options, if one could come in, freshen us up and have a few months to gauge the squad before a summer in which we simply have to rebuild, that is an appealing option. He'll get Sheff Utd at least but if we lose that one, with Brighton and Chelsea to follow, it would be irresponsible not to make a change in my view.
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold... |
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Originally posted by TheBigToePunt
Or to make it devastatingly, irreversibly worse. As the posts above point out, far more people have changed managers on the way to relegation than on the way into Europe. Again, in our case, it depends on whether you think the players are underperforming for their level of ability and/or that the same players are capable of playing a noticeably better style of football. I don't see any reason to think that. I also don't see our position as dire (it is much the same as it always is - we are hardly in uncharted territory here). For those two reasons, I wouldn't take the significant gamble of making a change. Edited by TheBigToePunt (24 Jan 2024 12.33pm) I think if we get a 2/3 loans, wingers, RB that Roy will play we will stay up, if we don't get any attack minded players in, we will be relegated with Roy, Nero Parish, over to you
“That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn |
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Originally posted by Willo
Some examples from recent seasons : Leeds - Terminated the services of Jesse Marsch after 20 PL games with the club 17th, appointed Skubala (Interim), Gracia and Allardyce and were relegated. Leicester - Brendan Rodgers departed after 28 PL games with the club 18th, appointed joint-interim managers then Dean Smith but Leicester were relegated Burnley - Removed Sean Dyche after 30 PL games with the club 18th, appointed Mike Jackson and got relegated. Of course there must be examples of clubs in the relegation mire making changes and surviving. The argument presumably is that if this clubs had kept their managers, they would have stayed up. Leicester & Burnley were having completely dismal runs and I can’t see how anyone could argue the incumbent managers could turn it around.
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Originally posted by Davepalace707
The argument presumably is that if this clubs had kept their managers, they would have stayed up. Leicester & Burnley were having completely dismal runs and I can’t see how anyone could argue the incumbent managers could turn it around. I was merely providing examples in relation to the comments from 'Big Toe Punt'. Burnley made a late change,8 games remaining, Leicester with 10 games remaining.
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Originally posted by Canterbury Palace
The difference this season is that because Olise and Eze have been injured for intervals, he's reverted to type and just tries to keep a clean sheet for 70 minutes before making an attacking change and trying to nick it. This is shown by the fact that we have only scored 7 goals in the first half, a total lower than every team bar Luton and Sheff Utd. It's footballing rope-a-dope and we're not doing it well. We're not even as defensively resilient this season, something that Roy relies on to be effective. So far we've conceded 34 goals in 21 games, an average of 1.6 per game. Last season it was 49 in 38 games, an average of 1.29. We all know well that the lack of investment in the squad is the primary reason for our decline but Roy's tactics and formations have become so simple to telegraph that teams have worked us out, as one win in 12 proves. I think it's a very sad ending to Roy's time with us and in an ideal world he'd get us through to the end of the season, keep us up and have an amicable goodbye. But survival has to come first. I agree with a lot of what you say but there are good managers on the market at the moment who would be better long term options, if one could come in, freshen us up and have a few months to gauge the squad before a summer in which we simply have to rebuild, that is an appealing option. He'll get Sheff Utd at least but if we lose that one, with Brighton and Chelsea to follow, it would be irresponsible not to make a change in my view.
Beyond that, I was deeply unconvinced by the idea, floating around on here at the time, that we had some sort of 'Roy Version 2' at the end of last season - as if a manager famed for sticking to the same basic principles for decades would suddenly change what he does, especially when he was brought in to stave off the lingering threat of getting drawn into a scrap at the bottom of the table. It goes back to my earlier point about Dyche at Everton. These guys like Roy, Pulis, Allardyce, Dyche etc, have stuck around to make a successful living managing the smaller sides in the top league in the world whilst a cast of thousands of exciting, upcoming, tactically astute coaches from all over the world have come and gone without trace. Why? Because these dinosaurs know what works in the real world. All of this old guard produce stodgy, cautious teams who seem to be playing for a nil-nil every week. Within that, there will be moments where they get cut apart by the big clubs, or perform disappointingly in non-descript games they might have won, but very often the average points per game will work out OK, and there will be the odd phase where form comes and the team play good stuff. I think that's what we got at the end of last season, just the usual brief period of good form (aided by playing pressure-free games after a while). I don't attribute it to a different approach from Roy at that time, nor do I see it as evidence that he has done something very different this season. One of the key reasons players do not progress from clubs like ours to bigger stings is that they are only capable of their best form fleetingly, but do know how to do a job otherwise.
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To those who insist that Roy is the best option for the rest of the season, is there any point at which they could contemplate a change?
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Originally posted by Davepalace707
The argument presumably is that if this clubs had kept their managers, they would have stayed up. Leicester & Burnley were having completely dismal runs and I can’t see how anyone could argue the incumbent managers could turn it around. Actually I think the argument is that changing manager is no guarantee of avoiding relegation.
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Originally posted by PatrickA
To those who insist that Roy is the best option for the rest of the season, is there any point at which they could contemplate a change? Should go now and appoint Cooper,while he is still available.
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Originally posted by NEILLO
Actually I think the argument is that changing manager is no guarantee of avoiding relegation. Agreed.
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Originally posted by TheBigToePunt
Beyond that, I was deeply unconvinced by the idea, floating around on here at the time, that we had some sort of 'Roy Version 2' at the end of last season - as if a manager famed for sticking to the same basic principles for decades would suddenly change what he does, especially when he was brought in to stave off the lingering threat of getting drawn into a scrap at the bottom of the table. It goes back to my earlier point about Dyche at Everton. These guys like Roy, Pulis, Allardyce, Dyche etc, have stuck around to make a successful living managing the smaller sides in the top league in the world whilst a cast of thousands of exciting, upcoming, tactically astute coaches from all over the world have come and gone without trace. Why? Because these dinosaurs know what works in the real world. All of this old guard produce stodgy, cautious teams who seem to be playing for a nil-nil every week. Within that, there will be moments where they get cut apart by the big clubs, or perform disappointingly in non-descript games they might have won, but very often the average points per game will work out OK, and there will be the odd phase where form comes and the team play good stuff. I think that's what we got at the end of last season, just the usual brief period of good form (aided by playing pressure-free games after a while). I don't attribute it to a different approach from Roy at that time, nor do I see it as evidence that he has done something very different this season. One of the key reasons players do not progress from clubs like ours to bigger stings is that they are only capable of their best form fleetingly, but do know how to do a job otherwise. Apropos "Absence of key creative players", I happen to believe that had Eze and Olise played together for all, or the majority of the season, some of the debate on HOL surrounding Mr Hodgson would not have existed.The absence of Doucoure has also been a significant factor. Edited by Willo (24 Jan 2024 1.07pm)
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If we lose to Sheffield I doubt Roy will survive. But then comes the question who replaces him ? For me, Paddy? no too inexperienced, Cooper ? no he couldnt fashion a team out of 65 different players. Potter ? Maybe if he's ready to go again. Mourhinho on a short term deal would be interesting but never going to happen. Anyone in a job and doing well isn't going to fancy coming to us as it's a toxic mix atm. So I am hoping we stuff Sheffield and Roy soldiers on untill the end of the season when we can make a move for a new coach.
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