This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
ukip (LOCKED)
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In
 luckybuck  17 May 14 6.12pm |
  |
|---|---|
|
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 5.58pm
Quote luckybuck at 17 May 2014 5.20pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.59pm
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 4.43pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
"slightly complicated" indeed - incomprehensible to many voters I would say. I'd say most people would understand if they watched this 3 minute clip: Besides, I don't think it really matters whether people understand the voting system. If anything, understanding the voting system leads to tactical voting. Just tell people to vote for what they want and let the long dead Me d'Hondt make sure the number of MEPs reflects the shares of the vote. Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
It is not democratic to deny people the ability to vote for members of different parties. You might really like a particular Tory candidate and a particular Labour candidate but you cannot vote for both of them. Even if you decide just to vote for say the Tory who is bottom of their list, then your vote contributes to the possible success of the Tory at the top of the list, who you may particularly dislike. That's not so much 'undemocratic', I'd say it's just a slightly different variation of democracy. Do you vote in the London Assembly elections? It's a very similar system. Also, presumably the Prime Minister is someone who you might not intend to vote for, do you think that makes parliamentary elections undemocratic? Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
The 'system' also results in the 'election' of such undesirables as the BNP. If people are voting for them in sufficient numbers, then why is that a bad thing? Democracy in action, I'd argue. People are not voting for them in 'sufficient numbers'. They get a small proportion of the vote and end up with seats due to the EU PR system. Non-democratic fiddle, I'd call it.
I have merely said that it is an unfortunate effect of the EU PR system that extremist parties can gain seats. PR for UK elections was rejected by a referendum in 2011. Yet the EU have imposed their dubious PR system on us. Rejecting even that crumby version of PR has led to many of our problems, including our current comedic coalition. I for one am not afraid of anybody having a vote, and that least should at least count towards 'something' of note. Edited by luckybuck (17 May 2014 6.14pm)
|
|
 Alert a moderator to this post |
 |
| kangel 17 May 14 6.13pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 6.05pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 5.58pm
Quote luckybuck at 17 May 2014 5.20pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.59pm
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 4.43pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
"slightly complicated" indeed - incomprehensible to many voters I would say. I'd say most people would understand if they watched this 3 minute clip: Besides, I don't think it really matters whether people understand the voting system. If anything, understanding the voting system leads to tactical voting. Just tell people to vote for what they want and let the long dead Me d'Hondt make sure the number of MEPs reflects the shares of the vote. Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
It is not democratic to deny people the ability to vote for members of different parties. You might really like a particular Tory candidate and a particular Labour candidate but you cannot vote for both of them. Even if you decide just to vote for say the Tory who is bottom of their list, then your vote contributes to the possible success of the Tory at the top of the list, who you may particularly dislike. That's not so much 'undemocratic', I'd say it's just a slightly different variation of democracy. Do you vote in the London Assembly elections? It's a very similar system. Also, presumably the Prime Minister is someone who you might not intend to vote for, do you think that makes parliamentary elections undemocratic? Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
The 'system' also results in the 'election' of such undesirables as the BNP. If people are voting for them in sufficient numbers, then why is that a bad thing? Democracy in action, I'd argue. People are not voting for them in 'sufficient numbers'. They get a small proportion of the vote and end up with seats due to the EU PR system. Non-democratic fiddle, I'd call it.
I have merely said that it is an unfortunate effect of the EU PR system that extremist parties can gain seats. PR for UK elections was rejected by a referendum in 2011. Yet the EU have imposed their dubious PR system on us. No it wasn't, the Alternative Vote system (not a proportional voting system) was. Technically it not fully PR, but a move towards it. The UK voted to retain 'first past the post'. They have had the EU PR fiasco imposed on them.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| kangel 17 May 14 6.21pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote Cucking Funt at 17 May 2014 6.07pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 5.58pm
Quote luckybuck at 17 May 2014 5.20pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.59pm
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 4.43pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
"slightly complicated" indeed - incomprehensible to many voters I would say. I'd say most people would understand if they watched this 3 minute clip: Besides, I don't think it really matters whether people understand the voting system. If anything, understanding the voting system leads to tactical voting. Just tell people to vote for what they want and let the long dead Me d'Hondt make sure the number of MEPs reflects the shares of the vote. Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
It is not democratic to deny people the ability to vote for members of different parties. You might really like a particular Tory candidate and a particular Labour candidate but you cannot vote for both of them. Even if you decide just to vote for say the Tory who is bottom of their list, then your vote contributes to the possible success of the Tory at the top of the list, who you may particularly dislike. That's not so much 'undemocratic', I'd say it's just a slightly different variation of democracy. Do you vote in the London Assembly elections? It's a very similar system. Also, presumably the Prime Minister is someone who you might not intend to vote for, do you think that makes parliamentary elections undemocratic? Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
The 'system' also results in the 'election' of such undesirables as the BNP. If people are voting for them in sufficient numbers, then why is that a bad thing? Democracy in action, I'd argue. People are not voting for them in 'sufficient numbers'. They get a small proportion of the vote and end up with seats due to the EU PR system. Non-democratic fiddle, I'd call it.
I have merely said that it is an unfortunate effect of the EU PR system that extremist parties can gain seats. PR for UK elections was rejected by a referendum in 2011. Yet the EU have imposed their dubious PR system on us.
PR wasn't an option in the 2011 referendum. Instead, it was some needlessly complicated and spazzy alternate-vote system that nobody understood. Certainly, I would not consider something I did like 'unfortunate'. Its the same as considering Usernames that are anagrams of swear words 'unfortunate'.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| kangel 17 May 14 6.24pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote luckybuck at 17 May 2014 6.12pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 5.58pm
Quote luckybuck at 17 May 2014 5.20pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.59pm
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 4.43pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
"slightly complicated" indeed - incomprehensible to many voters I would say. I'd say most people would understand if they watched this 3 minute clip: Besides, I don't think it really matters whether people understand the voting system. If anything, understanding the voting system leads to tactical voting. Just tell people to vote for what they want and let the long dead Me d'Hondt make sure the number of MEPs reflects the shares of the vote. Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
It is not democratic to deny people the ability to vote for members of different parties. You might really like a particular Tory candidate and a particular Labour candidate but you cannot vote for both of them. Even if you decide just to vote for say the Tory who is bottom of their list, then your vote contributes to the possible success of the Tory at the top of the list, who you may particularly dislike. That's not so much 'undemocratic', I'd say it's just a slightly different variation of democracy. Do you vote in the London Assembly elections? It's a very similar system. Also, presumably the Prime Minister is someone who you might not intend to vote for, do you think that makes parliamentary elections undemocratic? Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
The 'system' also results in the 'election' of such undesirables as the BNP. If people are voting for them in sufficient numbers, then why is that a bad thing? Democracy in action, I'd argue. People are not voting for them in 'sufficient numbers'. They get a small proportion of the vote and end up with seats due to the EU PR system. Non-democratic fiddle, I'd call it.
I have merely said that it is an unfortunate effect of the EU PR system that extremist parties can gain seats. PR for UK elections was rejected by a referendum in 2011. Yet the EU have imposed their dubious PR system on us. Rejecting even that crumby version of PR has led to many of our problems, including our current comedic coalition. I for one am not afraid of anybody having a vote, and that least should at least count towards 'something' of note. Edited by luckybuck (17 May 2014 6.14pm) If we had PR you would get endless coalitions.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| The White Horse 17 May 14 6.25pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 6.00pm
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 5.57pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 5.14pm
How do I vote for my preferred Tory and my preferred Labour candidates then? Pick between them. Very few electors would cherish the opportunity of being able to vote for multiple candidates/parties and often this leads to a situation where the most popular party simply ends up with several representatives while others have none. Take Penge and Cator Ward in Bromley as an example. Each Labour candidate gets 15% of the votes cast (collectively getting 45%), yet the 3 of them end up with all of the representation. It's nice you've got more choice, but is it actually more democratic? We should be able to vote for individual candidates to represent us as we do in UK parliamentary elections. In that situation (based on 2009 result), the most likely result would have been: East Mids: Tories all 5 So 60 seats for the Tories, 6 for the SNP and 3 for Labour and Sinn Fein. Admittedly if there was a particularly popular/unpopular candidate regionally, there might be one or two split regions but realistically as in council elections the alphabetical order will probably be just as influential when there are split results as individual candidates' reputations. Would this result (or one like it) not be a total farce? UKIP got 16.5% of the vote and would probably end up with no representatives. The Lib Dems had 13.7% and have none either. Yet Labour with 15.7% of the vote gets 3! First-past-the-post can have very perverse outcomes.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
 Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 17 May 14 6.31pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 6.21pm
Quote Cucking Funt at 17 May 2014 6.07pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 5.58pm
Quote luckybuck at 17 May 2014 5.20pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.59pm
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 4.43pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
"slightly complicated" indeed - incomprehensible to many voters I would say. I'd say most people would understand if they watched this 3 minute clip: Besides, I don't think it really matters whether people understand the voting system. If anything, understanding the voting system leads to tactical voting. Just tell people to vote for what they want and let the long dead Me d'Hondt make sure the number of MEPs reflects the shares of the vote. Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
It is not democratic to deny people the ability to vote for members of different parties. You might really like a particular Tory candidate and a particular Labour candidate but you cannot vote for both of them. Even if you decide just to vote for say the Tory who is bottom of their list, then your vote contributes to the possible success of the Tory at the top of the list, who you may particularly dislike. That's not so much 'undemocratic', I'd say it's just a slightly different variation of democracy. Do you vote in the London Assembly elections? It's a very similar system. Also, presumably the Prime Minister is someone who you might not intend to vote for, do you think that makes parliamentary elections undemocratic? Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
The 'system' also results in the 'election' of such undesirables as the BNP. If people are voting for them in sufficient numbers, then why is that a bad thing? Democracy in action, I'd argue. People are not voting for them in 'sufficient numbers'. They get a small proportion of the vote and end up with seats due to the EU PR system. Non-democratic fiddle, I'd call it.
I have merely said that it is an unfortunate effect of the EU PR system that extremist parties can gain seats. PR for UK elections was rejected by a referendum in 2011. Yet the EU have imposed their dubious PR system on us.
PR wasn't an option in the 2011 referendum. Instead, it was some needlessly complicated and spazzy alternate-vote system that nobody understood. Certainly, I would not consider something I did like 'unfortunate'. Its the same as considering Usernames that are anagrams of swear words 'unfortunate'.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| kangel 17 May 14 6.36pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 6.25pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 6.00pm
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 5.57pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 5.14pm
How do I vote for my preferred Tory and my preferred Labour candidates then? Pick between them. Very few electors would cherish the opportunity of being able to vote for multiple candidates/parties and often this leads to a situation where the most popular party simply ends up with several representatives while others have none. Take Penge and Cator Ward in Bromley as an example. Each Labour candidate gets 15% of the votes cast (collectively getting 45%), yet the 3 of them end up with all of the representation. It's nice you've got more choice, but is it actually more democratic? We should be able to vote for individual candidates to represent us as we do in UK parliamentary elections. In that situation (based on 2009 result), the most likely result would have been: East Mids: Tories all 5 So 60 seats for the Tories, 6 for the SNP and 3 for Labour and Sinn Fein. Admittedly if there was a particularly popular/unpopular candidate regionally, there might be one or two split regions but realistically as in council elections the alphabetical order will probably be just as influential when there are split results as individual candidates' reputations. Would this result (or one like it) not be a total farce? UKIP got 16.5% of the vote and would probably end up with no representatives. The Lib Dems had 13.7% and have none either. Yet Labour with 15.7% of the vote gets 3! First-past-the-post can have very perverse outcomes. I consider the entire EU and its workings a farce, whatever system they employ. But if your figures are correct for first past the post, fine (nice to see the Liberals on 'Nil Points', perhaps Clegg should grow a beard and put a dress on). Are the EU Commissioners, who run the whole racket anyway, appointed by any sort of PR system? Edited by kangel (17 May 2014 6.51pm)
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| The White Horse 17 May 14 7.23pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 6.36pm
I consider the entire EU and its workings a farce, whatever system they employ. But if your figures are correct for first past the post, fine (nice to see the Liberals on 'Nil Points', perhaps Clegg should grow a beard and put a dress on). Then just say that, rather than starting debates about what "democracy" is by criticising proportional representation. Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 6.36pm
Are the EU Commissioners, who run the whole racket anyway, appointed by any sort of PR system? I think there's a difference between proposing legislation and "running the whole racket". They can only pass laws if a majority of MEPs (themselves elected by PR) vote for them. The MEPs also have the power to sack the entire Commission and must vote to ratify their appointment in the first place. The obvious point to make is that the UK government's executive is also indirectly elected, but people don't seem to mind about that. Also, in the UK the leader of the executive can be selected in any number of ways, whereas in the EU they must be elected by all MEPs, rather than MEPs of a particular party.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| kangel 17 May 14 7.54pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 7.23pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 6.36pm
I consider the entire EU and its workings a farce, whatever system they employ. But if your figures are correct for first past the post, fine (nice to see the Liberals on 'Nil Points', perhaps Clegg should grow a beard and put a dress on). Then just say that, rather than starting debates about what "democracy" is by criticising proportional representation. Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 6.36pm
I also consider PR to be undemocratic, as I suspect the majority of UK voters do, and I will certainly continue to criticise it at every opportunity. Are the EU Commissioners, who run the whole racket anyway, appointed by any sort of PR system? I think there's a difference between proposing legislation and "running the whole racket". They can only pass laws if a majority of MEPs (themselves elected by PR) vote for them. The MEPs also have the power to sack the entire Commission and must vote to ratify their appointment in the first place. Not really where the EU is concerned. The obvious point to make is that the UK government's executive is also indirectly elected, but people don't seem to mind about that. Also, in the UK the leader of the executive can be selected in any number of ways, whereas in the EU they must be elected by all MEPs, rather than MEPs of a particular party. I couldn't care less about how the EU appoints its apparatchiks and am happy with our own arrangements. I merely would like our own parliament to have control of our own country. Edited by kangel (17 May 2014 7.59pm)
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| The White Horse 17 May 14 8.04pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 7.54pm
I couldn't care less about how the EU appoints its apparatchiks and am happy with our own arrangements. I merely would like our own parliament to have control of our own country. My point is that the EU doesn't appoint their "apparatchiks", they elect them. Some of the democratic elections they have forced upon us are on Thursday, for example. As I said, maybe keep your objections to the EU to clichéd sentences like the above and whinges about immigration, rather than making forays into how democracy ought to operate.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| kangel 17 May 14 8.06pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 8.04pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 7.54pm
I couldn't care less about how the EU appoints its apparatchiks and am happy with our own arrangements. I merely would like our own parliament to have control of our own country. My point is that the EU doesn't appoint their "apparatchiks", they elect them. Some of the democratic elections they have forced upon us are on Thursday, for example. As I said, maybe keep your objections to the EU to clichéd sentences like the above and whinges about immigration, rather than making forays into how democracy ought to operate. As I cannot vote directly for individuals of my choice, I consider the EU elections undemocratic. Have I whinged about immigration? Edited by kangel (17 May 2014 8.18pm)
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| The White Horse 17 May 14 8.20pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 8.06pm
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 8.04pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 7.54pm
I couldn't care less about how the EU appoints its apparatchiks and am happy with our own arrangements. I merely would like our own parliament to have control of our own country. My point is that the EU doesn't appoint their "apparatchiks", they elect them. Some of the democratic elections they have forced upon us are on Thursday, for example. As I said, maybe keep your objections to the EU to clichéd sentences like the above and whinges about immigration, rather than making forays into how democracy ought to operate. As I cannot vote directly for individuals of my choice, I consider the EU elections undemocratic. When you call the UN to let them know, don't forget to let them know about the tyranny of the London Assembly too. And about the thousands of elections that occur right across the world constantly where people vote for a party instead of an individual.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
Login / RegisterNew users
Registration is now on our new message board
Existing users
To login with your existing username you will need to convert your account over to the new message board.
Sponsors
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2024 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.