Why are you obsessed with gays and Muslims?

Is it because none live in the place you do?

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Someone starts a convoy about Muslims and gays. Others respond and are then accused of being obsessed.

I don't know what you mean by all Muslims. Who is doing that? That's a nonsense defence that you create.

However mainstream Islam has to reform as bad ideas are bad ideas and if you want to be known as an apologist for mainstream Islam's ideas as you obviously are then so be it. You call people bigots yet don't recognise your own complicity when you sit in silence on the data on mainstream Islamic attitudes.

I'm with the reformers and their descriptions of people like you. Yes, you are a part of the problem for them and you fully deserve the criticism.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Who is to you say you, a hypocritical blowhard with a major guilt issue, is correct and 2,000 years of faith is wrong?

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

The main difference seems to be that the Christian faith has openly gay priests (almost compulsory in the more 'progressive' C of E parishes) whereas the Muslim faith usually has, or calls for or actually carries out, the death penalty for gay people.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

First point, do I live in a Christian country? I know you have just told me I do but that doesn't really tally with what I see.

It's definitely a majority culturally Christian country...hell up until a few years back I described myself the same way but I don't think anything like the majority go to Church and if you read the Bible it's pretty much required.

A lot of people have their own versions going on or and/or are various degrees of atheist or agnostic.

Second point:

Islam calls for punishments for homosexuals in the Qu'ran but doesn't specify but in some hadiths it calls for death. So essentially this has led to negative attitudes towards homosexuals within most mainstream Islamic communities.

No punishments for homosexuality are called for within mainstream Christianity. It's views on homosexuality are to view it as a sin and to pray for healing and repentance. That's it's version of how to take the 'inspiration' of the old testament.

Now Judaism calls for the death penalty:

Leviticus 20:13: “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

Leviticus 18:22: “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”

Leviticus 18:29 “Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people.”

Petty bad stuff but there is an important difference between the two religions which explains why even strict Jews aren't killing homosexuals. Mainstream Jews and Christians regard their books as 'inspired by God' whereas mainstream Muslims regard the Qu'ran as the literal word of God.

Hence the problem with reform....But Judaism and Christianity could reform more easily as their works could be framed contextually as just applying to their times far more easily than Islam's words could. If Allah's words are literal then they are going to be followed literally as best as they can.

Quran (4:16) - "If two among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone"

Quran (7:81) - "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?"

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"

It's in the hadiths though where it goes up a notch.

Sahih Al-Bukhari – Book 72 Hadith 774
The Prophet (peace be upon him) cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, “Turn them out of your houses.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) turned out such-and-such man, and ‘Umar turned out such-and-such woman.

Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4447
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4448
If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.

There is more but just how long should this post be.

So in summary mainstream Christianity has taken their old testament problematical words and reduced them down to sins that require repentance.

Whereas the only real debate within mainstream Islam on this question is to what extent should homosexuality be punished....not that it shouldn't be....That's liberal secular Islam that unfortunately isn't mainstream anywhere.

So in Islamic run countries the experiences for homosexuals are often far far worse than in the west.

And people who are talk about these absurd moral equivalencies...either from ignorance or from cultural relativism are literally a part of the problem.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 May 2017 3.17pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)