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 the_mcanuff_stuff  Caterham 07 Jun 17 5.41pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I don't think you or a British Government could. It'd be turned over in the Law Courts. You cannot exact Punishment without law, is a basic tenant of UK law. Its ratified by the Human Rights Act, but it effectively dates back to Magna Carta. Its not even really about rights, but the basis of British Law. You'd definitely need a trial or conviction as the basis to establish deportation. What about ASBOs, then? They arguably restrict peoples freedoms, who have not been convicted. surely this is punishment without conviction?
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 Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 07 Jun 17 5.44pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Couldn't we just melt them down and use them to fill in some of the potholes in our roads? We have a winner
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Jun 17 5.47pm |
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Originally posted by Cucking Funt
If they're not UK citizens, deport them immediately and then let them appeal from whatever country they originated from. They can also be denied re-entry on the grounds of their presence not being conducive to the public good regardless. Which is inherently unlawful, and violates the oldest tenets of English law, you cannot punish people without a trial. To deport someone you must be able to show valid and just reason: and that means a trial.
Originally posted by Cucking Funt
For those who are UK citizens, if they've been specifically granted it, then it can be revoked. Only if they have a dual nationality. The problem is back in the 90s lots of right wingers were complaining about people having 'split loyalties' and as a result when someone becomes a UK citizen, excepting for a few nations, they have to surrender their original nationality. And you cannot revoke someone's nationality, and deport them, because there is no where to deport them to. Their home nation isn't going to accept them as they're no longer citizens. They'll just be on the next flight back to the UK, having been refused entry. Originally posted by Cucking Funt
That should bring the numbers down a bit. Not really, it'll just create a lot of law suits.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Jun 17 5.50pm |
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Originally posted by the_mcanuff_stuff
What about ASBOs, then? They arguably restrict peoples freedoms, who have not been convicted. surely this is punishment without conviction? These are issued to terror suspects (except they're stronger than ASBOs) and they make it a crime to undertake certain actions (such as travelling abroad, using the internet, breaking a curfew, associating with extremists, electronic tagging, no use of a phone and so on).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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NKEagle  Pyongyang 07 Jun 17 5.50pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
What rights do you deserve if you kill and maim others? Legally, the same rights as any other person accused of killing or maiming someone (Or guilty of killing or maiming someone). Its not about rights, its the basic premise of our legal system. Once you've got a conviction, you can deport someone (if they they're not British). The answer ought to be: None. But the trouble is that we don't have a precise way of identifying who is going to commit tomorrow's attack. Any method of identifying such people runs the risk of catching up people who are truly innocent and have no intention whatsoever of committing violence. But that said, anybody who's going around waving an ISIS flag, shouting death to non-believers, and all that certainly falls on the "lock them up and throw away the key" side of the line.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Jun 17 5.52pm |
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Originally posted by NKEagle
I was being a bit glib. My point is -- who cares *where* they're deported to. The point is simply that they're out of the country. If either they or their new country don't like it, that's their problem. The country that your deporting them to cares. Problem is when someone is deported, unless they have nationality in that country, they can be refused entry and are put back on the next flight to the UK. Same as we do when we refuse people entry to the UK at the border, they either go straight back or are detained (typically because we cannot establish their nationality - or they apply for asylum if eligible).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Jun 17 5.56pm |
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Originally posted by NKEagle
The answer ought to be: None. Yes. Originally posted by NKEagle
But the trouble is that we don't have a precise way of identifying who is going to commit tomorrow's attack. Any method of identifying such people runs the risk of catching up people who are truly innocent and have no intention whatsoever of committing violence. Yep
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| NKEagle Pyongyang 07 Jun 17 5.57pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
The country that your deporting them to cares. Problem is when someone is deported, unless they have nationality in that country, they can be refused entry and are put back on the next flight to the UK. Same as we do when we refuse people entry to the UK at the border, they either go straight back or are detained (typically because we cannot establish their nationality - or they apply for asylum if eligible). Okay, melting them down and filling in the potholes it is then.
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| Stirlingsays 07 Jun 17 6.00pm |
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Essentially you can see that the problem is egalitarians and lawyers. They believe that essentially a person who says they hate this country should have the same entitlements and benefits that say my son has....or my brother and various family who fought for this country. Essentially I say bollocks to all that. Change the law and pursue these people. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Jun 2017 6.01pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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 Hrolf The Ganger 07 Jun 17 6.01pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
You can't though, because one of the foundations of English law is that you cannot exert punishment without law. If you want to deport someone, they have to have been convicted of a crime. The protection of the public is a priority, and that includes the protection of the public from the power of the state. You can detain people without charge, it happens every time someone is arrested. The problem is that the maximum period is 28 days, after which you have to charge them (at which point you can apply to have them held without bail until the trial) and so on. Problem is, the person is only at this point a suspect. And the history of high profile murder and terrorism cases is littered with false convictions, frame jobs etc. Or you can declare a state of emergency (which allows for indefinite detention without charge, which is what France has done recently). I'm not suggesting you deport someone who hasn't committed a crime, I'm saying that the definition of what you can be deported or imprisoned for could change. A state of emergency seems like the right option to detain without charge. We are at that point.
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| Stirlingsays 07 Jun 17 6.04pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
The country that your deporting them to cares. Problem is when someone is deported, unless they have nationality in that country, they can be refused entry and are put back on the next flight to the UK. Same as we do when we refuse people entry to the UK at the border, they either go straight back or are detained (typically because we cannot establish their nationality - or they apply for asylum if eligible). You don't just deport somebody. You pay another country to take this garbage and strip their nationality. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Jun 2017 6.04pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 07 Jun 17 6.17pm |
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It's a pretty f*cked up world if a nation can't take whatever steps are necessary to protect its citizens or the integrity of its borders. There didn't seem to be this problem in 1939 but then we didn't have all the Human Rights paraphernalia which, in the public's eye, seems to benefit lawyers and undesirables over the interests of the greater population. Declare war or a state of emergency. The only way to deal with a critical threat, be it internal or external.
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