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ukip (LOCKED)
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 Cucking Funt  Clapham on the Back 17 May 14 2.58pm |
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Quote serial thriller at 17 May 2014 2.55pm
Z [Link] This made me chuckle. Farage absolutely decimated on LBC.
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| kangel 17 May 14 3.02pm |
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Is it Groundhog Day?
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 The White Horse 17 May 14 3.02pm |
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Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 10.13am
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 12.54am
We live in a representative democracy, where you elect an MP and they make decisions on your behalf. You can't just pick and choose the type of democracy you have based upon whether it reflects your views at a particular time. Not in the EU we don't. Not only do you have to vote for a party en bloc regardless of whether you like or dislike a candidate within that party block, your choice of party is then downgraded if that party is too popular. This isn't strictly true. Votes are of roughly equal weight, but the best way to get results where the share of the vote is close to equal each party's share of the vote is to use quite a complicated formula (that you described). Look at the London results last time: Conservative - 479,037 - 3 The most popular party (the Tories) got an MEP for every 159,679 votes cast, whereas Labour got an MEP for every 186,295 votes and you can see above that the 3 parties with 1 MEP took even more votes to get one MEP elected. Essentially with 8 MEPs, it wouldn't make sense to give MEPs out on the basis of how many eighths of the vote they have, because that would have been about 220,000 votes and you'd just have had 2 Tories, a Labour MEP and a Lib Dem MEP. It's a slightly complicated system, but it's impossible for a party to get fewer votes than another at the constituency level and end up with fewer MEPs. If you dislike the candidate(s) in the block, don't vote for the party, simple as that. Edited by The White Horse (17 May 2014 3.15pm)
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 17 May 14 3.05pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 17 May 2014 1.21pm
I didn't write that Willo. Nick My sincere apologies attributing the comments to you.They were of course made by Kangel.I'm a galumphing great idiot who needs to be put out to pasture !
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| The White Horse 17 May 14 3.14pm |
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Quote Rudi Hedman at 17 May 2014 11.21am
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 12.42am
I care about people who are unemployed, hence why I support things like promising long-term unemployed people a guaranteed job from the state. My argument is that immigration actually increases employment by enhancing the economy and the public finances, so it's less about not caring about the problem, more disagreeing that immigration is causing it.
So they're filling the same positions a Brit would fill and overall paying less tax and NI. If Labour had nudged a few people into job searching as the tories have done and into some of the positions they've filled and clamped down on supermarket-farmer pressure on prices then they would've gone a long way to addressing this. Sunday Times Rich List is out tomorrow I believe. Bet there are loads of immigrants. Coming over here, creating our jobs. I'd be interested to see any evidence for your less tax and NI claim.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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| Stirlingsays 17 May 14 3.22pm |
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Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 3.14pm
Sunday Times Rich List is out tomorrow I believe. Bet there are loads of immigrants. Coming over here, creating our jobs. I'd be interested to see any evidence for your less tax and NI claim. No one ever moans about rich immigrants Horsey. Well....Ok....Apart from the resultant property prices in London they don't.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| The White Horse 17 May 14 3.25pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 May 2014 3.22pm
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 3.14pm
Sunday Times Rich List is out tomorrow I believe. Bet there are loads of immigrants. Coming over here, creating our jobs. I'd be interested to see any evidence for your less tax and NI claim. No one ever moans about rich immigrants Horsey. Well....Ok....Apart from the resultant property prices in London they don't. Always amuses my when right-wing Evening Standard columnists complain about high house prices as if they actually give a sh*t about ordinary people
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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| luckybuck 17 May 14 3.31pm |
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Interesting to see The Sun call Farage a racist today. They peddle similar views for the most part.
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 17 May 14 3.31pm |
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Quote Cucking Funt at 17 May 2014 2.58pm
Quote serial thriller at 17 May 2014 2.55pm
Z [Link] This made me chuckle. Farage absolutely decimated on LBC.
He was made less dense in a photograph? (We can all play the 'double meanings of words' game)
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| kangel 17 May 14 4.06pm |
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Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 3.02pm
Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 10.13am
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 12.54am
We live in a representative democracy, where you elect an MP and they make decisions on your behalf. You can't just pick and choose the type of democracy you have based upon whether it reflects your views at a particular time. Not in the EU we don't. Not only do you have to vote for a party en bloc regardless of whether you like or dislike a candidate within that party block, your choice of party is then downgraded if that party is too popular. This isn't strictly true. Votes are of roughly equal weight, but the best way to get results where the share of the vote is close to equal each party's share of the vote is to use quite a complicated formula (that you described). Look at the London results last time: Conservative - 479,037 - 3 The most popular party (the Tories) got an MEP for every 159,679 votes cast, whereas Labour got an MEP for every 186,295 votes and you can see above that the 3 parties with 1 MEP took even more votes to get one MEP elected. Essentially with 8 MEPs, it wouldn't make sense to give MEPs out on the basis of how many eighths of the vote they have, because that would have been about 220,000 votes and you'd just have had 2 Tories, a Labour MEP and a Lib Dem MEP. It's a slightly complicated system, but it's impossible for a party to get fewer votes than another at the constituency level and end up with fewer MEPs. If you dislike the candidate(s) in the block, don't vote for the party, simple as that. Edited by The White Horse (17 May 2014 3.15pm) "slightly complicated" indeed - incomprehensible to many voters I would say. It is not democratic to deny people the ability to vote for members of different parties. You might really like a particular Tory candidate and a particular Labour candidate but you cannot vote for both of them. Even if you decide just to vote for say the Tory who is bottom of their list, then your vote contributes to the possible success of the Tory at the top of the list, who you may particularly dislike. The 'system' also results in the 'election' of such undesirables as the BNP.
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| Stirlingsays 17 May 14 4.15pm |
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Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 3.25pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 May 2014 3.22pm
Quote The White Horse at 17 May 2014 3.14pm
Sunday Times Rich List is out tomorrow I believe. Bet there are loads of immigrants. Coming over here, creating our jobs. I'd be interested to see any evidence for your less tax and NI claim. No one ever moans about rich immigrants Horsey. Well....Ok....Apart from the resultant property prices in London they don't. Always amuses my when right-wing Evening Standard columnists complain about high house prices as if they actually give a sh*t about ordinary people
I'm feeling vaguely nostalgic.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| The White Horse 17 May 14 4.43pm |
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Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
"slightly complicated" indeed - incomprehensible to many voters I would say. I'd say most people would understand if they watched this 3 minute clip: Besides, I don't think it really matters whether people understand the voting system. If anything, understanding the voting system leads to tactical voting. Just tell people to vote for what they want and let the long dead Me d'Hondt make sure the number of MEPs reflects the shares of the vote. Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
It is not democratic to deny people the ability to vote for members of different parties. You might really like a particular Tory candidate and a particular Labour candidate but you cannot vote for both of them. Even if you decide just to vote for say the Tory who is bottom of their list, then your vote contributes to the possible success of the Tory at the top of the list, who you may particularly dislike. That's not so much 'undemocratic', I'd say it's just a slightly different variation of democracy. Do you vote in the London Assembly elections? It's a very similar system. Also, presumably the Prime Minister is someone who you might not intend to vote for, do you think that makes parliamentary elections undemocratic? Quote kangel at 17 May 2014 4.06pm
The 'system' also results in the 'election' of such undesirables as the BNP. If people are voting for them in sufficient numbers, then why is that a bad thing? Democracy in action, I'd argue.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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