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Southport mass stabbing
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 Nicholas91  The Democratic Republic of Kent 02 Aug 24 2.26pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I am both surprised and disappointed by this attitude. Of all the posters here who take right wing positions you have always come over as more thoughtful and open to reason. The attitude being displayed is so illogical as to be completely unreasonable. Some reading it might think it unhinged. Which doesn’t fit past contributions. Upset and anger are natural reactions to appalling atrocities of the kind we have just had. The first responders would have experienced those emotions just as strongly as everyone, probably more so as they faced the consequences directly. Being professionals they had to put those emotions aside and do their jobs. Which the police are continuing to do. All of us, me included, were horrified by this event, as we are by anything of this kind. We wish there were never such things, and that there are ways to ensure they don’t happen, but they do, and there isn’t. Nobody, and certainly not me are looking for bogeymen. That’s a nonsensical idea. The rioters weren’t responsible for the murders. They are only responsible for the later chaos. Most people don’t worry about taking their kids to holiday camp, or indeed to dance classes, because such things are hugely beneficial experiences where the potential benefits outweigh the very minimal risks. That’s always been true and is no less true today that at any time before. It’s the perception that it is not true which is held by a minority which is producing this problem. How to reassure and convince them, given the attention on display in this thread, is a big challenge. People seem completely convinced of things that are just untrue. Demanding you hear from the police and politicians about “what they intend to do” is simply more evidence of unreasonableness. They are as upset as everyone, but they know, as most of us know, that there are no instant answers. Nor ever any complete answers. Only lessons and improvements. That’s not “defending the authorities” as some seek to portray it. It’s a simple fact. I have just returned from our local hospital where I witnessed a heartbreaking scene. A little boy, maybe 7 or 8, in floods of tears and shaking with emotion, being comforted by an older lady. I don’t know why, but instinctively it felt as though he had just lost someone very close to him. Obviously not the same as the murders but still upsetting to witness and feel incapable of helping. We all feel heartbroken by tragedy. Very few feel the need to chuck bricks at policemen as a consequence. Or demand instant responses to assumed causes. I am not crying about the disturbances at all. I just think they are disgusting examples of totally pointless behaviour that make things worse, not better. I fail to understand why anyone cannot see that or, worse, attempt to justify them. We need to support the police in their efforts to bring criminals to justice. Not give them more work to do. Here's a direct quote from the BBC, with the critical bit in bold: "Not everyone attending these protests or posting about the Southport attacks holds fringe views, supports rioting or has links to far-right groups. The protests also appeared to draw in people concerned about violent crime or misled by the misinformation that the attack was linked to illegal immigration." I've stated numerous times now it's becoming unbearable, that I have no support for the riots let alone were drawn in by them, but you persist with sticking to that line and focussing upon these events. Again, you are solely concerned with your political stance and convinced I am of an opposite persuasion when I challenge you. Those on the fringes often do that as their attitude only reflects their own intentions. You and they are the 'unhinged' before we even get to your accepted inevitability for the murder of children. I am not, I am somebody concerned by what happened in Southport yet who still opposes the rioting. Both the left and right try to hijack such things and you are a prime example of the extreme leftist delusion who has jumped aboard this to attack the right. That is what I would describe as 'unhinged' before we even address the fact you think that a citizen is 'unreasonable' for demanding anything of their politicians in such an instance as the random murder of children. Don't start confusing me with others who hold extremist views such as you do, just because I challenge you on your position. You jumped immediately on here to do nothing but attack any counterparts or counterarguments on the right, not addressing the issue until you were provoked. You exist in the same bubble as anyone else who has also used this for political hatred bottled up inside them. No parent should have to face what happened as a reality or have to weigh it up in their considerations for their own children. There will be numerous contributors as to why this happened and I've not heard the slightest inclination toward addressing this from those whose job it is nor do I have any faith whatsoever it will be. Holding that as a concern is not a political stance, it's a moral one. The routine processing of a child murderer is not where my bar is set on expectation and response. I can see why that and holding any strong views on these events is 'unhinged' for you however. I've stopped visiting N&P often as I viewed it to be unhealthy for an individual. Interaction with somebody who spends their entire life on here is a stark reminder. They try to draw you in to their unreality.
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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Stirlingsays  02 Aug 24 2.39pm |
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
Here's a direct quote from the BBC, with the critical bit in bold: "Not everyone attending these protests or posting about the Southport attacks holds fringe views, supports rioting or has links to far-right groups. The protests also appeared to draw in people concerned about violent crime or misled by the misinformation that the attack was linked to illegal immigration." I've stated numerous times now it's becoming unbearable, that I have no support for the riots let alone were drawn in by them, but you persist with sticking to that line and focussing upon these events. Again, you are solely concerned with your political stance and convinced I am of an opposite persuasion when I challenge you. Those on the fringes often do that as their attitude only reflects their own intentions. You and they are the 'unhinged' before we even get to your accepted inevitability for the murder of children. I am not, I am somebody concerned by what happened in Southport yet who still opposes the rioting. Both the left and right try to hijack such things and you are a prime example of the extreme leftist delusion who has jumped aboard this to attack the right. That is what I would describe as 'unhinged' before we even address the fact you think that a citizen is 'unreasonable' for demanding anything of their politicians in such an instance as the random murder of children. Don't start confusing me with others who hold extremist views such as you do, just because I challenge you on your position. You jumped immediately on here to do nothing but attack any counterparts or counterarguments on the right, not addressing the issue until you were provoked. You exist in the same bubble as anyone else who has also used this for political hatred bottled up inside them. No parent should have to face what happened as a reality or have to weigh it up in their considerations for their own children. There will be numerous contributors as to why this happened and I've not heard the slightest inclination toward addressing this from those whose job it is nor do I have any faith whatsoever it will be. Holding that as a concern is not a political stance, it's a moral one. The routine processing of a child murderer is not where my bar is set on expectation and response. I can see why that and holding any strong views on these events is 'unhinged' for you however. I've stopped visiting N&P often as I viewed it to be unhealthy for an individual. Interaction with somebody who spends their entire life on here is a stark reminder. They try to draw you in to their unreality.
While you are more moderate than some of us and as you have stated have mixed ethnicity I think most rational people would regard your posts and their demeanor as decent and reasonable. It's definitely true to say I'm more pessimistic about the future and the consequences of paths chosen but it's also true to say I hope I'm wrong. I have no objections to more optimistic projections from decent people but I'd be lying if I thought they were likely. Perhaps if we had had a far far more stringent attitude against multiculturalism in the country and pushed monoculture as it was a long time ago...but the nature of liberalism and democracy means that was never realistic. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Aug 2024 2.43pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 02 Aug 24 2.50pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Nuts. No one supports the knifing of children, nor apologises for those that do it. When counter protests to right wing ones happen a toxic mix can occur. Who goads who will depend on whose narrative you choose to believe. I know of no one who supports illegal immigration. I know of many who understand the need for managed immigration. How the police deal with protests is a matter for them. I would expect them to assess the risks and decide how best to ensure that peace is maintained. Expecting them to handle them all in exactly the same way is completely unrealistic. I think you will find that certain sectors of foreign communities do indeed believe in killing an unbeliever, irrespective of their age. I thought marches and protests had to be approved by the local police, in which case why accept a counter demonstration unless you are prepared for confrontation to take place; even, expect it to? You know of no one who supports illegal immigration; 'All migrants welcome' obviously doesn't register with you down in Cornwall. Let's finish on the imaginary scenario that the knifing of young children produced nothing but a candlelight gathering; no riots or protests against immigration. Do you think that the authorities would now be deploying a police task force to root out and interview all potential nutcases that are 'known to the authorities'? No, it suits the authorities to have a bogeyman to try and curtail, The reason why kids were knifed can then become secondary.
hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Aug 24 2.51pm |
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Examining social media by BBC Verify is a very important service they are now providing n the age of internet interference and misinformation. Without it how can we be aware of where the dangerous nonsense comes from? I wondered where Stephen Yaxley-Lennon was in all this. Well actually where he is physically is better known in that’s it not in the UK as he disappeared to France to avoid attending his latest court appearance. The riots over the past few days seem so akin to Y-L‘s style some connection to him would not have been surprising. Whilst the organisation he founded, then left, has officially been disbanded the ideas it promulgated have not gone away, and there are apparently some who continue to regard themselves as part of the EFL and who were involved in the riots. It seems that the suggestions of right wing internet influencers circulating misinformation and encouraging disorder are correct. As was my suspicion about Y-L It’s an interesting and informative read, which doubtless will produce howls of denial and excuses. In the meantime, children are dead, others remain in hospital and people are grieving. Perhaps Y-L and his like should learn to show restraint and respect. Y-L nearly collapsed a trial before through his stupidity. It is deeply regrettable that many of the excuses detailed in this article can also be read in this thread:-
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Teddy Eagle  02 Aug 24 3.07pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Well you do live in Scotland! True. My wife doesn't drink but is invariably the leader aff. One Diet Coke and she's asking strangers to pick a windae.
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| Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 02 Aug 24 3.11pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
While you are more moderate than some of us and as you have stated have mixed ethnicity I think most rational people would regard your posts and their demeanor as decent and reasonable. It's definitely true to say I'm more pessimistic about the future and the consequences of paths chosen but it's also true to say I hope I'm wrong. I have no objections to more optimistic projections from decent people but I'd be lying if I thought they were likely. Perhaps if we had had a far far more stringent attitude against multiculturalism in the country and pushed monoculture as it was a long time ago...but the nature of liberalism and democracy means that was never realistic. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Aug 2024 2.43pm) I am too Stirling, but they are just my opinions which I do not cling to dearly nor do I regard them as fact. It's more of a concern which, with emotion, can descend into a delusional and irrational forecast which deviates from reality. I speak only for myself there and again when I say I consider it unhealthy. I am concerned with the political landscape however as, given my heritage, race holds little weight for me. It's culture that concerns me and we live in a further divided and volatile one. Everything within the landscape seems to be laser focussed upon convincing people to form tribes, already from a vast array of backgrounds, which inevitably keep them occupied warring with one another whilst a tiny percentage reap the financial and other rewards. People are forever being convinced that the individual is the be all and end all which is seeing the erosion of societal identity. I consider myself English, always have without any quiver, but some may argue I am not. I wouldn't care for their opinion of course, it's none of my business, but those who have more nationalistic views of 'English', living in England, I wouldn't dare to criticise. That's their right. I'm not rich to any degree it's worth shouting about, however I have no financial concerns for myself and my family, put it that way. I do live in this country however and very much intend to continue doing so. I therefore want the country to function as best possible for myself and my family, for generations to come, as well as others who live here with me. When kids are being murdered on the street and the concern is with a tiny amateur movement labelled 'far right', you know something has to be wrong and we're deviating from reality. I saw a specialist doctor at King's today who's Sri Lankan but born here, I do every 6 months. I hold some concerns with him as he did his usual today where given we see each other somewhat frequently, and we're in a similar position in life, the conversation leans more toward general chit chat than it does anything to do with my medical status! He has two young girls and shared similar sentiments to me, all of concern for the direction of travel and little faith in that changing.
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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| Mstrobez 02 Aug 24 3.20pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Nuts. No one supports the knifing of children, nor apologises for those that do it. It’s called virtue signalling. “If you disagree with people rioting, you support kids being stabbed”. No different from when the woke left do the “if you disagree with with taking down statues, you’re racist”. It’s much easier to dismiss people than actually debate the issue at hand. The great irony is that, despite supposedly hating eachothers guts, the “woke left” and alt right “patriots” (again, just pure virtue signalling) have far more in common with eachother than they realise.
We're the Arthur over ere! |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Aug 24 3.31pm |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
I think you will find that certain sectors of foreign communities do indeed believe in killing an unbeliever, irrespective of their age. I thought marches and protests had to be approved by the local police, in which case why accept a counter demonstration unless you are prepared for confrontation to take place; even, expect it to? You know of no one who supports illegal immigration; 'All migrants welcome' obviously doesn't register with you down in Cornwall. Let's finish on the imaginary scenario that the knifing of young children produced nothing but a candlelight gathering; no riots or protests against immigration. Do you think that the authorities would now be deploying a police task force to root out and interview all potential nutcases that are 'known to the authorities'? No, it suits the authorities to have a bogeyman to try and curtail, The reason why kids were knifed can then become secondary. That someone would be so evil to consider killing children because they don’t believe would make them both an outcast from decent society and a criminal almost everywhere, including here, if they took a step towards doing it. Perhaps they exist. Nutters do. Marches do have to be approved and, although I am no expert, think they are kept a distance apart. Sometimes breakaway’s happen by those seeking confrontation. You either have to let each proceed or ban both. That some individuals might post welcome signs is not indicative of any general beliefs. I have never encountered such signs, but I don’t live in Dover. There are always exceptions. Your imaginary scenario immediately highlights the whole problem when you describe the riots as protests against immigration. Peaceful protests about immigration are perfect acceptable. Staging them in the aftermath of a tragedy involving the murders of children are not when there is zero evidence that immigration had anything to do with the murders. It’s this assumption that is so wrong, combined with the violent nature of the protests themselves. The accused is not an immigrant. He is British born. That his parents were doesn’t change that. He has not been tried. He has been charged. No defence has yet been presented. There are hints of a mental health problem. Rushing to assume this was all due to immigration is simply wrong. We don’t know. Patience is what is needed. Not violent yobs going on a mindless rampage. How the police monitor others of concern is, understandably, unknown, but I am sure they, social services and the probation services do. You can though only monitor. Interviewing them would be a pointless waste of time. You cannot detain on suspicion alone and there will some who remain completely unknown until they commit their evil. Seeking perfect solutions is to imagine a dream world. The real world isn’t like that.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 02 Aug 24 3.39pm |
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This thread is like being in assembly with a new headmaster who thinks people are taking notice of everything he says.
COYP |
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eagleman13  On The Road To Hell & Alicante 02 Aug 24 4.00pm |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
This thread is like being in assembly with a new headmaster who thinks people are taking notice of everything he says.
This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise. |
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| Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 02 Aug 24 4.18pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
That someone would be so evil to consider killing children because they don’t believe would make them both an outcast from decent society and a criminal almost everywhere, including here, if they took a step towards doing it. Perhaps they exist. Nutters do. Marches do have to be approved and, although I am no expert, think they are kept a distance apart. Sometimes breakaway’s happen by those seeking confrontation. You either have to let each proceed or ban both. That some individuals might post welcome signs is not indicative of any general beliefs. I have never encountered such signs, but I don’t live in Dover. There are always exceptions. Your imaginary scenario immediately highlights the whole problem when you describe the riots as protests against immigration. Peaceful protests about immigration are perfect acceptable. Staging them in the aftermath of a tragedy involving the murders of children are not when there is zero evidence that immigration had anything to do with the murders. It’s this assumption that is so wrong, combined with the violent nature of the protests themselves. The accused is not an immigrant. He is British born. That his parents were doesn’t change that. He has not been tried. He has been charged. No defence has yet been presented. There are hints of a mental health problem. Rushing to assume this was all due to immigration is simply wrong. We don’t know. Patience is what is needed. Not violent yobs going on a mindless rampage. How the police monitor others of concern is, understandably, unknown, but I am sure they, social services and the probation services do. You can though only monitor. Interviewing them would be a pointless waste of time. You cannot detain on suspicion alone and there will some who remain completely unknown until they commit their evil. Seeking perfect solutions is to imagine a dream world. The real world isn’t like that. I would have thought that to have a better chance of peaceful protests you don't allow a counter protest. Those that 'book' the protest/march get to run it in a less confrontational way if there isn't a counter protest going on. The counter protest can book another day. But peaceful protest doesn't get the attention and therefore the excuses for tough measures need to be apparent. Cynic? Maybe. Even peaceful protests about immigration attract counter protests, they don't have to be organised by the EDF, so forgive me if I think that there are people who want uncontrolled immigration.
hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing. |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 02 Aug 24 4.23pm |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
I would have thought that to have a better chance of peaceful protests you don't allow a counter protest. Those that 'book' the protest/march get to run it in a less confrontational way if there isn't a counter protest going on. The counter protest can book another day. But peaceful protest doesn't get the attention and therefore the excuses for tough measures need to be apparent. Cynic? Maybe. Even peaceful protests about immigration attract counter protests, they don't have to be organised by the EDF, so forgive me if I think that there are people who want uncontrolled immigration. The French electricity provider?
COYP |
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