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  Hrolf The Ganger  07 Jun 17 5.06pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
'we won't let them change our way of life (but we are going to have a go at decimating the human rights act)' seems to be May's line at the moment.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Jun 17 5.08pm |
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Originally posted by NKEagle
If that's the case, "deport" them to the middle of the ocean. Or into the back of a wood chipper Rule of law and all that. Turns out, you can't just be killing folks. Even with a trial, its incredibly unlikely the UK would return to capital punishment, and if it did, that the judiciary would utilise the sentence.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Jun 17 5.11pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Legally, the same rights as any other person accused of killing or maiming someone (Or guilty of killing or maiming someone). Its not about rights, its the basic premise of our legal system. Once you've got a conviction, you can deport someone (if they they're not British).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 07 Jun 17 5.15pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Legally, the same rights as any other person accused of killing or maiming someone (Or guilty of killing or maiming someone). Its not about rights, its the basic premise of our legal system. Once you've got a conviction, you can deport someone (if they they're not British). Right. So the reasons for which you can be charged or deported need to change and detention without charge should be considered. The protection of the public has to be a priority.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Jun 17 5.15pm |
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Originally posted by NKEagle
There's no perfect place to draw the line. It's like the Potter Stewart definition of p*rnography -- "I know it when I see it." I don't think it's possible to create any hard and fast definitions that would simultaneously secure us against all (or almost all) future attacks and not result in scores of truly innocent people being rounded up/interned/deported/etc. This is why we have rights and legal duties, to ensure fair treatment, a fair trial and of course everyone is innocent until proven guilty. So if you're rounding up suspects, you're rounding up scores of innocent people. Now the UK can detain people indefinitely, as human rights are defunct in terms of terrorism, under a state of emergency. The point of a legal system and a system of rights is that it prevents the excesses of state, and the tyranny of majority.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 07 Jun 17 5.18pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
You mean the fact that we granted him political asylum from a country, and then tried to deport him back to that country. Logic, and reason, dictates that you cannot deport someone to a country which you have granted them political asylum from. Logic and reason should dictate that you safeguard your own country first.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| Stirlingsays 07 Jun 17 5.19pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I don't think you or a British Government could. It'd be turned over in the Law Courts. You cannot exact Punishment without law, is a basic tenant of UK law. Its ratified by the Human Rights Act, but it effectively dates back to Magna Carta. Its not even really about rights, but the basis of British Law. You'd definitely need a trial or conviction as the basis to establish deportation. Essentially I'd throw out any extremists on my watch list. Obviously I believe that evidence was a requirement of that and I'd allow for limited representation via evidence review with a judge. As for a conviction.....Nope I know exactly how that fcuks everything up. Personally I don't care about previous legal history. I care about effectively protecting the citizens/subjects of the country.....not warm words and holding hands across bridges.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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NKEagle  Pyongyang 07 Jun 17 5.29pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
This is why we have rights and legal duties, to ensure fair treatment, a fair trial and of course everyone is innocent until proven guilty. So if you're rounding up suspects, you're rounding up scores of innocent people. Now the UK can detain people indefinitely, as human rights are defunct in terms of terrorism, under a state of emergency. The point of a legal system and a system of rights is that it prevents the excesses of state, and the tyranny of majority. Yes, that's the present system. Which does not protect us from all attacks. That's kind of my point -- any system which could truly keep us safe (if that's even possible) would necessarily involve a great many truly innocent people's fundamental rights being seriously violated.
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| NKEagle Pyongyang 07 Jun 17 5.34pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Rule of law and all that. Turns out, you can't just be killing folks. Even with a trial, its incredibly unlikely the UK would return to capital punishment, and if it did, that the judiciary would utilise the sentence. I was being a bit glib. My point is -- who cares *where* they're deported to. The point is simply that they're out of the country. If either they or their new country don't like it, that's their problem.
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 Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 07 Jun 17 5.35pm |
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If they're not UK citizens, deport them immediately and then let them appeal from whatever country they originated from. They can also be denied re-entry on the grounds of their presence not being conducive to the public good regardless. For those who are UK citizens, if they've been specifically granted it, then it can be revoked. That should bring the numbers down a bit.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Jun 17 5.39pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Right. So the reasons for which you can be charged or deported need to change and detention without charge should be considered. The protection of the public has to be a priority. You can't though, because one of the foundations of English law is that you cannot exert punishment without law. If you want to deport someone, they have to have been convicted of a crime. The protection of the public is a priority, and that includes the protection of the public from the power of the state. You can detain people without charge, it happens every time someone is arrested. The problem is that the maximum period is 28 days, after which you have to charge them (at which point you can apply to have them held without bail until the trial) and so on. Problem is, the person is only at this point a suspect. And the history of high profile murder and terrorism cases is littered with false convictions, frame jobs etc. Or you can declare a state of emergency (which allows for indefinite detention without charge, which is what France has done recently).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 07 Jun 17 5.40pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
You can't though, because one of the foundations of English law is that you cannot exert punishment without law. If you want to deport someone, they have to have been convicted of a crime. The protection of the public is a priority, and that includes the protection of the public from the power of the state. You can detain people without charge, it happens every time someone is arrested. The problem is that the maximum period is 28 days, after which you have to charge them (at which point you can apply to have them held without bail until the trial) and so on. Problem is, the person is only at this point a suspect. And the history of high profile murder and terrorism cases is littered with false convictions, frame jobs etc. Or you can declare a state of emergency (which allows for indefinite detention without charge, which is what France has done recently). Couldn't we just melt them down and use them to fill in some of the potholes in our roads?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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