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palace chick South Croydon 22 Jan 24 9.41pm
Originally posted by doombear Ozoh has shown he can be a PL player with regular starts. He's already contributing at least as much or more than Schlupp and Hughes when he gets decent minutes as occurred when Hodgson was forced to play him at the Etihad when Ward got injured in the first half. Some will say Ozoh hasn't done much since. However, how many of Hodgson's favoured experienced pros make a meaningful contribution when they're given 10 minute cameos? Answer = none; so why expect the youngsters to break into the team when they're only given those kinds of opportunities? IMO, the real problem is Hodgson's rigid system which he only trusts his seasoned pros to play and at present some of them are making a pig's ear of it and dragging down our better players as a result. Even without Olise, Ayew and Doucoure, we don't have a squad that's relegation quality. It's better than that, but not, it seems in Hodgson's hands. Sadly, I don’t agree with your last paragraph. I do believe without them we are relegation candidates. You make a good point about Hodgson’s rigid system and I do believe that’s why the younger players don’t flourish under him. Especially when they come off the bench and just have to fit into a system and play out of position. Perhaps after Hodgson has left (which will be end of season I guess) they will flourish. Let’s hope that’s not in the championship :-(
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palace chick

South Croydon 22 Jan 24 9.41pm

Originally posted by doombear

Ozoh has shown he can be a PL player with regular starts. He's already contributing at least as much or more than Schlupp and Hughes when he gets decent minutes as occurred when Hodgson was forced to play him at the Etihad when Ward got injured in the first half.

Some will say Ozoh hasn't done much since. However, how many of Hodgson's favoured experienced pros make a meaningful contribution when they're given 10 minute cameos? Answer = none; so why expect the youngsters to break into the team when they're only given those kinds of opportunities?

IMO, the real problem is Hodgson's rigid system which he only trusts his seasoned pros to play and at present some of them are making a pig's ear of it and dragging down our better players as a result.

Even without Olise, Ayew and Doucoure, we don't have a squad that's relegation quality. It's better than that, but not, it seems in Hodgson's hands.

Sadly, I don’t agree with your last paragraph. I do believe without them we are relegation candidates. You make a good point about Hodgson’s rigid system and I do believe that’s why the younger players don’t flourish under him. Especially when they come off the bench and just have to fit into a system and play out of position. Perhaps after Hodgson has left (which will be end of season I guess) they will flourish. Let’s hope that’s not in the championship :-(

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PatrickA London 23 Jan 24 7.31am
Does anybody seriously think Roy would play the adventurous teenagers Hinselwood (Brighton) or Miley (Newcastle) ahead of Clyne/Ward in the first case or Schlupp in the second instance? It wouldn’t happen. It’s taken DeZerbi and Howe to give them sustained opportunities rather than 10 minutes when games are already lost as Hodgson has a tendency to do with youngsters . Some years ago when Hodgson was England manager Ross Barkley was one of the outstanding emerging English talents in the country and was in the squad. There was a clamour to include Barkley in the team ahead of some of the more pedestrian players Hodgson was selecting. Hodgson spent one press conference expanding on all the things Barkley couldn’t do rather than eulogising on what he could bring to the team. This negative stance on the young player went down like a lead balloon with Barkley’s club Everton. The fact that Barkley never achieved his full potential is immaterial. The hammering a young player in front of a press conference gives an insight into Hodgson’s approach to emerging talents. He’s not going to change. No doubt Roy’s defenders will point to AWB, Olise and Eze. AWB was an an out and out defender and a zero risk option from day one as was self evident. Olise and Eze already had extensive playing experience in the Championship. There is an argument that our young players have wasted this season as they could have been out on loan playing first team football as opposed to being permanent benchwarmers. This of course is not solely attributable to Roy as the thin squad means we have needed to keep them on to make up the numbers. However, there is an argument that it has been at the expense of their development.
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PatrickA

London 23 Jan 24 7.31am

Does anybody seriously think Roy would play the adventurous teenagers Hinselwood (Brighton) or Miley (Newcastle) ahead of Clyne/Ward in the first case or Schlupp in the second instance?
It wouldn’t happen.
It’s taken DeZerbi and Howe to give them sustained opportunities rather than 10 minutes when games are already lost as Hodgson has a tendency to do with youngsters .

Some years ago when Hodgson was England manager Ross Barkley was one of the outstanding emerging English talents in the country and was in the squad.
There was a clamour to include Barkley in the team ahead of some of the more pedestrian players Hodgson was selecting.
Hodgson spent one press conference expanding on all the things Barkley couldn’t do rather than eulogising on what he could bring to the team.
This negative stance on the young player went down like a lead balloon with Barkley’s club Everton.
The fact that Barkley never achieved his full potential is immaterial.
The hammering a young player in front of a press conference gives an insight into Hodgson’s approach to emerging talents.
He’s not going to change.

No doubt Roy’s defenders will point to AWB, Olise and Eze.
AWB was an an out and out defender and a zero risk option from day one as was self evident.
Olise and Eze already had extensive playing experience in the Championship.

There is an argument that our young players have wasted this season as they could have been out on loan playing first team football as opposed to being permanent benchwarmers.
This of course is not solely attributable to Roy as the thin squad means we have needed to keep them on to make up the numbers.
However, there is an argument that it has been at the expense of their development.

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NEILLO Shoreham-by-Sea 23 Jan 24 10.01am
Originally posted by PatrickA Does anybody seriously think Roy would play the adventurous teenagers Hinselwood (Brighton) or Miley (Newcastle) ahead of Clyne/Ward in the first case or Schlupp in the second instance? It wouldn’t happen. It’s taken DeZerbi and Howe to give them sustained opportunities rather than 10 minutes when games are already lost as Hodgson has a tendency to do with youngsters . Some years ago when Hodgson was England manager Ross Barkley was one of the outstanding emerging English talents in the country and was in the squad. There was a clamour to include Barkley in the team ahead of some of the more pedestrian players Hodgson was selecting. Hodgson spent one press conference expanding on all the things Barkley couldn’t do rather than eulogising on what he could bring to the team. This negative stance on the young player went down like a lead balloon with Barkley’s club Everton. The fact that Barkley never achieved his full potential is immaterial. The hammering a young player in front of a press conference gives an insight into Hodgson’s approach to emerging talents. He’s not going to change. No doubt Roy’s defenders will point to AWB, Olise and Eze. AWB was an an out and out defender and a zero risk option from day one as was self evident. Olise and Eze already had extensive playing experience in the Championship. There is an argument that our young players have wasted this season as they could have been out on loan playing first team football as opposed to being permanent benchwarmers. This of course is not solely attributable to Roy as the thin squad means we have needed to keep them on to make up the numbers. However, there is an argument that it has been at the expense of their development. Why are we still obsessing over Hodgson's reluctance to play young players ? If it was an established fact before he was re-appointed in the summer, then you have to question the clubs decision to spend half of the transfer budget on a Brazilian teenager. And then, as you say, pad the squad out with younger players that are unlikely to get a look in. As for '' Roy's defenders '', Steve Parish himself recently praised Hodgson in the matchday programme for bringing Ozoh into the first team picture. In my opinion this is just another example of the lack of strategic direction coming from the Top. It's not joined up. Old, Ungifted and White
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NEILLO

Shoreham-by-Sea 23 Jan 24 10.01am

Originally posted by PatrickA

Why are we still obsessing over Hodgson's reluctance to play young players ?

If it was an established fact before he was re-appointed in the summer, then you have to question the clubs decision to spend half of the transfer budget on a Brazilian teenager. And then, as you say, pad the squad out with younger players that are unlikely to get a look in.

As for '' Roy's defenders '', Steve Parish himself recently praised Hodgson in the matchday programme for bringing Ozoh into the first team picture.

In my opinion this is just another example of the lack of strategic direction coming from the Top. It's not joined up.

Old, Ungifted and White

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PatrickA London 23 Jan 24 10.42am
It’s not so much obsessing about young players. It’s a response to the blanket acceptance from some posters that Roy would play young players if they were good enough. This despite the fact the fact that there is evidence that he does not trust young players in the way that other managers demonstrably do and it is this which I was endeavouring to highlight. I think most would agree that in terms of the next manager it would be hoped that younger players would be given a greater opportunity to flourish.
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PatrickA

London 23 Jan 24 10.42am

It’s not so much obsessing about young players.
It’s a response to the blanket acceptance from some posters that Roy would play young players if they were good enough.
This despite the fact the fact that there is evidence that he does not trust young players in the way that other managers demonstrably do and it is this which I was endeavouring to highlight.
I think most would agree that in terms of the next manager it would be hoped that younger players would be given a greater opportunity to flourish.

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est1905 23 Jan 24 12.17pm
Originally posted by PatrickA To say it's a fact that the young players are not good enough is unproven. It's possible they are not good enough at the moment,but it's not an absolute fact. Largely they've been thrown on when games are already gone and, in the case of Ahamada, played out of position and set up to fail. It may be they are not deemed 'good enough' for Roy's rigid system but would flourish under a more progressive manager. I note that young players are being given extended opportunities at Brighton, Newcastle, Wolves and Bournemouth and by and large are doing well. I suppose the retort will be that their youngsters are all better than ours, but I don't necessarily accept that. Indeed DeZebri commented that the club have a policy of young players recognising that they will mistakes along the way. That's the very nature of gaining experience. Gaining 10 minute cameos here and there when games are already gone, which we do, is not necessarily conducive to obtaining proper experience. You make some fair points but its rubbish to suggest Most of these players are thrown on, played out of position, for only ten minutes and when the game is already lost! All of our youngsters have had far more opportunities than that and have not grabbed those opportunities. And I will repeat, its massively short sighted to only look at what they do in matches just because thats all we fans see. Roy, Ray, Paddy and the rest of the entire coaching team see all these youngsters all day every day. They cannot be doing anything to impress during such a problematic injury crisis if they are not being handed more minutes. Your argument that they would thrive under a different manager is also flawed. The opposite could be true. A new manager could come in and after taking a good look at them decide they need to go out on loan to League 2 level. Thats equally as feasible as your assertion.
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est1905

23 Jan 24 12.17pm

Originally posted by PatrickA

To say it's a fact that the young players are not good enough is unproven.
It's possible they are not good enough at the moment,but it's not an absolute fact.
Largely they've been thrown on when games are already gone and, in the case of Ahamada, played out of position and set up to fail.
It may be they are not deemed 'good enough' for Roy's rigid system but would flourish under a more progressive manager.
I note that young players are being given extended opportunities at Brighton, Newcastle, Wolves and Bournemouth and by and large are doing well.
I suppose the retort will be that their youngsters are all better than ours, but I don't necessarily accept that.
Indeed DeZebri commented that the club have a policy of young players recognising that they will mistakes along the way.
That's the very nature of gaining experience.
Gaining 10 minute cameos here and there when games are already gone, which we do, is not necessarily conducive to obtaining proper experience.

You make some fair points but its rubbish to suggest Most of these players are thrown on, played out of position, for only ten minutes and when the game is already lost! All of our youngsters have had far more opportunities than that and have not grabbed those opportunities. And I will repeat, its massively short sighted to only look at what they do in matches just because thats all we fans see. Roy, Ray, Paddy and the rest of the entire coaching team see all these youngsters all day every day. They cannot be doing anything to impress during such a problematic injury crisis if they are not being handed more minutes. Your argument that they would thrive under a different manager is also flawed. The opposite could be true. A new manager could come in and after taking a good look at them decide they need to go out on loan to League 2 level. Thats equally as feasible as your assertion.

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thai-eagle chiang mai 23 Jan 24 1.08pm
But would it not be better to throw in some of the young ones and prepare them for next season, than play Sclupp, Hughes and Mateta that has resulted in 1 win in 12 games?
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thai-eagle

chiang mai 23 Jan 24 1.08pm

But would it not be better to throw in some of the young ones and prepare them for next season, than play Sclupp, Hughes and Mateta that has resulted in 1 win in 12 games?

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est1905 23 Jan 24 1.13pm
Originally posted by thai-eagle But would it not be better to throw in some of the young ones and prepare them for next season, than play Sclupp, Hughes and Mateta that has resulted in 1 win in 12 games? I see your point but looking through the coaches eyes they are picking the best possible team at their disposal to win the game. They obviously dont believe the players that are not starting to be in that bracket. Its a results business after all
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est1905

23 Jan 24 1.13pm

Originally posted by thai-eagle

But would it not be better to throw in some of the young ones and prepare them for next season, than play Sclupp, Hughes and Mateta that has resulted in 1 win in 12 games?

I see your point but looking through the coaches eyes they are picking the best possible team at their disposal to win the game.
They obviously dont believe the players that are not starting to be in that bracket. Its a results business after all

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Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 23 Jan 24 1.45pm
Originally posted by est1905 You make some fair points but its rubbish to suggest Most of these players are thrown on, played out of position, for only ten minutes and when the game is already lost! All of our youngsters have had far more opportunities than that and have not grabbed those opportunities. And I will repeat, its massively short sighted to only look at what they do in matches just because thats all we fans see. Roy, Ray, Paddy and the rest of the entire coaching team see all these youngsters all day every day. They cannot be doing anything to impress during such a problematic injury crisis if they are not being handed more minutes. Your argument that they would thrive under a different manager is also flawed. The opposite could be true. A new manager could come in and after taking a good look at them decide they need to go out on loan to League 2 level. Thats equally as feasible as your assertion. I have to disagree est1905. According to Transfermarkt: Matthews: 1 Apps, 3mins, Avg: 3mins/per game Whitworth: N/A Adaramola: N/A Balmer: N/A Grehan: N/A Ahamada; 14 Apps, 237mins, Avg: 17mins/per game Wells-Morrison: N/A Raymond: N/A Ozoh: 8 Apps, 146 mins, Avg: 18mins/per game JRS: 8 Apps, 230mins, Avg: 29mins/per game Gordon: N/A Plange: N/A Ebiowei: N/A Franca: 8 Apps, 155mins, Avg: 19mins/per game I accept some of these players are indeed on loan and I am assuming this information is correct where it may not be. You then have to factor in whether or not Roy is not picking them on talent alone or whether or not they suit his system, which is patently not working for us. That's part of the problem, he's employing a style which has seen our dreadful run but this also excludes the inclusion of prospects. If indeed your point did reflect the reality, that they simply are not good enough and therefore Roy is not playing them based on that, it's not something the fans will ever be able to agree with unless we assume Roy to be all knowing. This is very hard to do given the absolute shambles we're in. We'll also ask what kind of risk is involved here? Would sparing/resting a couple players and equally granting the opportunity for youngsters produce much less goals, losses and pathetic performances than we've seen in the last dozen games? With regards to thriving under a new manager, that would be a very speculative suggestion, but it is fair to say things couldn't be much worse than they are with Roy when it comes to blooding or introducing talent. AWB was brought in out of necessity/crisis and Ebz/Olise both arrived very much with the intention of including them in the first team. I am strongly suspicious that were it not for the financial outlay and decision making behind the move, we may not have seen Franca at all this season. Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!
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Nicholas91

The Democratic Republic of Kent 23 Jan 24 1.45pm

Originally posted by est1905

I have to disagree est1905.

According to Transfermarkt:

Matthews: 1 Apps, 3mins, Avg: 3mins/per game
Whitworth: N/A
Adaramola: N/A
Balmer: N/A
Grehan: N/A
Ahamada; 14 Apps, 237mins, Avg: 17mins/per game
Wells-Morrison: N/A
Raymond: N/A
Ozoh: 8 Apps, 146 mins, Avg: 18mins/per game
JRS: 8 Apps, 230mins, Avg: 29mins/per game
Gordon: N/A
Plange: N/A
Ebiowei: N/A
Franca: 8 Apps, 155mins, Avg: 19mins/per game

I accept some of these players are indeed on loan and I am assuming this information is correct where it may not be.

You then have to factor in whether or not Roy is not picking them on talent alone or whether or not they suit his system, which is patently not working for us. That's part of the problem, he's employing a style which has seen our dreadful run but this also excludes the inclusion of prospects.

If indeed your point did reflect the reality, that they simply are not good enough and therefore Roy is not playing them based on that, it's not something the fans will ever be able to agree with unless we assume Roy to be all knowing. This is very hard to do given the absolute shambles we're in. We'll also ask what kind of risk is involved here? Would sparing/resting a couple players and equally granting the opportunity for youngsters produce much less goals, losses and pathetic performances than we've seen in the last dozen games?

With regards to thriving under a new manager, that would be a very speculative suggestion, but it is fair to say things couldn't be much worse than they are with Roy when it comes to blooding or introducing talent. AWB was brought in out of necessity/crisis and Ebz/Olise both arrived very much with the intention of including them in the first team. I am strongly suspicious that were it not for the financial outlay and decision making behind the move, we may not have seen Franca at all this season.

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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PatrickA London 23 Jan 24 1.46pm
I didn’t state it as a fact that the youngsters would thrive under other managers. I said other managers are prepared to give youngsters opportunities (e.g the teenagers at Newcastle and Brighton ) who are persevered with at Premier League level and are flourishing. None of our youngsters have started at Premier League level this season , and amongst their limited opportunities they have been thrown on against Newcastle, Spurs and Arsenal when we’ve been losing with little or no chance of coming back into the game. Not exactly a fair crack of the whip. Some or all of them may not succeed in the fulllness of time, but I can virtually guarantee if they do succeed it won’t be under Roy. He said in the post match Everton press conference that chances for the youngsters in the Premier League are likely to be ‘few and far between.’ I do believe they would have more opportunities and encouragement under e.g a DeZerbi or a Howe, but I guess we won’t find out until a new manager is appointed. Originally posted by est1905 You make some fair points but its rubbish to suggest Most of these players are thrown on, played out of position, for only ten minutes and when the game is already lost! All of our youngsters have had far more opportunities than that and have not grabbed those opportunities. And I will repeat, its massively short sighted to only look at what they do in matches just because thats all we fans see. Roy, Ray, Paddy and the rest of the entire coaching team see all these youngsters all day every day. They cannot be doing anything to impress during such a problematic injury crisis if they are not being handed more minutes. Your argument that they would thrive under a different manager is also flawed. The opposite could be true. A new manager could come in and after taking a good look at them decide they need to go out on loan to League 2 level. Thats equally as feasible as your assertion.
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PatrickA

London 23 Jan 24 1.46pm

I didn’t state it as a fact that the youngsters would thrive under other managers.
I said other managers are prepared to give youngsters opportunities (e.g the teenagers at Newcastle and Brighton ) who are persevered with at Premier League level and are flourishing.
None of our youngsters have started at Premier League level this season , and amongst their limited opportunities they have been thrown on against Newcastle, Spurs and Arsenal when we’ve been losing with little or no chance of coming back into the game.
Not exactly a fair crack of the whip.
Some or all of them may not succeed in the fulllness of time, but I can virtually guarantee if they do succeed it won’t be under Roy.
He said in the post match Everton press conference that chances for the youngsters in the Premier League are likely to be ‘few and far between.’
I do believe they would have more opportunities and encouragement under e.g a DeZerbi or a Howe, but I guess we won’t find out until a new manager is appointed.

Originally posted by est1905

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eagleman13 On The Road To Hell & Alicante 23 Jan 24 1.52pm
Originally posted by Nicholas91 I have to disagree est1905. According to Transfermarkt: Matthews: 1 Apps, 3mins, Avg: 3mins/per game Whitworth: N/A Adaramola: N/A Balmer: N/A Grehan: N/A Ahamada; 14 Apps, 237mins, Avg: 17mins/per game Wells-Morrison: N/A Raymond: N/A Ozoh: 8 Apps, 146 mins, Avg: 18mins/per game JRS: 8 Apps, 230mins, Avg: 29mins/per game Gordon: N/A Plange: N/A Ebiowei: N/A Franca: 8 Apps, 155mins, Avg: 19mins/per game I accept some of these players are indeed on loan and I am assuming this information is correct where it may not be. You then have to factor in whether or not Roy is not picking them on talent alone or whether or not they suit his system, which is patently not working for us. That's part of the problem, he's employing a style which has seen our dreadful run but this also excludes the inclusion of prospects. If indeed your point did reflect the reality, that they simply are not good enough and therefore Roy is not playing them based on that, it's not something the fans will ever be able to agree with unless we assume Roy to be all knowing. This is very hard to do given the absolute shambles we're in. We'll also ask what kind of risk is involved here? Would sparing/resting a couple players and equally granting the opportunity for youngsters produce much less goals, losses and pathetic performances than we've seen in the last dozen games? With regards to thriving under a new manager, that would be a very speculative suggestion, but it is fair to say things couldn't be much worse than they are with Roy when it comes to blooding or introducing talent. AWB was brought in out of necessity/crisis and Ebz/Olise both arrived very much with the intention of including them in the first team. I am strongly suspicious that were it not for the financial outlay and decision making behind the move, we may not have seen Franca at all this season. Good post Nick, none of those listed have started a league game this season, JRS is injured & a few are, as you say, out on loan. I don't agree with the other poster that Roy & Ray 'sees' the youth players in training, as they do the 1st team squad on a different pitch. Btw, you have had a comment on your beeb post, 13.39 Andy in MK This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.
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eagleman13

On The Road To Hell & Alicante 23 Jan 24 1.52pm

Originally posted by Nicholas91

I have to disagree est1905.

According to Transfermarkt:

I accept some of these players are indeed on loan and I am assuming this information is correct where it may not be.

Good post Nick, none of those listed have started a league game this season, JRS is injured & a few are, as you say, out on loan. I don't agree with the other poster that Roy & Ray 'sees' the youth players in training, as they do the 1st team squad on a different pitch.

Btw, you have had a comment on your beeb post, 13.39 Andy in MK

This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.

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Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 23 Jan 24 2.06pm
Originally posted by eagleman13 Good post Nick, none of those listed have started a league game this season, JRS is injured & a few are, as you say, out on loan. I don't agree with the other poster that Roy & Ray 'sees' the youth players in training, as they do the 1st team squad on a different pitch. Btw, you have had a comment on your beeb post, 13.39 Andy in MK There's little control the admin on here have unless I consistently break house rules but why the BBC keep providing me with a platform I've no idea. Perhaps it's a diversity thing where they hold me as a favoured halfwit they allow to air opinions Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!
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Nicholas91

The Democratic Republic of Kent 23 Jan 24 2.06pm

Originally posted by eagleman13

Btw, you have had a comment on your beeb post, 13.39 Andy in MK

There's little control the admin on here have unless I consistently break house rules but why the BBC keep providing me with a platform I've no idea. Perhaps it's a diversity thing where they hold me as a favoured halfwit they allow to air opinions

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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eagleman13 On The Road To Hell & Alicante 23 Jan 24 2.10pm
Originally posted by Nicholas91 There's little control the admin on here have unless I consistently break house rules but why the BBC keep providing me with a platform I've no idea. Perhaps it's a diversity thing where they hold me as a favoured halfwit they allow to air opinions Maybe they see your posts as a higher intelligence from what they normally get & i see where you're coming from about your 'diversity' . . . This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.
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eagleman13

On The Road To Hell & Alicante 23 Jan 24 2.10pm

Originally posted by Nicholas91

Maybe they see your posts as a higher intelligence from what they normally get & i see where you're coming from about your 'diversity' . . .

This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.

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