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Blasts in London

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Mr Statto Flag Ifield 08 Jul 05 5.02pm Send a Private Message to Mr Statto Add Mr Statto as a friend

From what I gather the bomb was on the back of the top deck, so a lot of the blast will have gone up and out through the sides & back. If it had been in the middle of the bottom deck it doesn't bear thinking about.

 


That's just the ramblings of a madman

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laddo Flag london 08 Jul 05 8.28pm Send a Private Message to laddo Add laddo as a friend

Crikey, it's all got nasty. Yeah this could be Muslims, in fact you'd be slightly misguided to even suggest it wasn't, but let's not forget the Admiral Duncan pub and Brick Lane, bombed by right-wing scum, there are extremists all over the place.

As for being a tree-hugger, well what can I say. I like trees!

 


laddo

"People say, live fast, die young. I say live fast, die old. That's me, the non-conformist".
David Brent.

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Kosowski Flag Standing at the top of B Block 09 Jul 05 11.48am Send a Private Message to Kosowski Add Kosowski as a friend

Quote Mr Statto at 08 Jul 2005 5:02pm

From what I gather the bomb was on the back of the top deck, so a lot of the blast will have gone up and out through the sides & back. If it had been in the middle of the bottom deck it doesn't bear thinking about.


Its exactly this that makes me think the bus bomb was detonated by accident. Its carrier was probably aiming to get to another site and it went up in his face en-route. 75% of the energy from such devices goes straight up which is why they were more effective in the confined spaces of the underground. Like you said, if the bus bomb was intentional it would surely have been detonated on the bottom deck for maximum effect.

 


Block B comment of 2011/2012 Season:

"That's better Palace, better...but still fucking shit!"

----------------------------------------------------------------

Dann to Much, Much to Yong.

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tarquin Flag Orpington 09 Jul 05 9.41pm Send a Private Message to tarquin Add tarquin as a friend

I dunno if this picture has been posted on here before, but the fact that there are people on the top deck trying to get off is amazing... [Link]

 

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Dan1 Flag Croydon 09 Jul 05 11.53pm Send a Private Message to Dan1 Add Dan1 as a friend

Apparently the three tube bombs went off at the same time. If so, then what the bus bomber was up to if his bomb went off almost an hour later? From witness statements he kept ducking down and looking into his bag. Makes you wonder if they were suicide bombers or not?

 

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matt_himself Flag Matataland 11 Jul 05 11.15am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

I laid some flowers at Liverpool Street this morning, there's a strange atmosphere, but a very defiant one. We will not be scared.

The part I did find unnerving was seeing the missing posters on the way in to the office.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Saucy-Minx Flag has missed you guys! 11 Jul 05 11.16am Send a Private Message to Saucy-Minx Add Saucy-Minx as a friend

Thursday 7th July - a dark London day,
many of us helpless and can only but pray,
pray for those you love, pray for strangers,
pray for everyone who's life may be in danger.

Love, hurt, confusion and hatred,
why did peoples lives have to be dated?
not like that, not here, not now,
their lives were planned... but that wasn't how.

Love is sent from everyone at this time,
Anger's on hold, but they'll pay for this crime,
To those who committed this atrocious sin,
Our 4 words to you are simply "YOU WILL NOT WIN!"

Edited by Saucy-Minx (11 Jul 2005 11:16am)

 


Most football teams are temperamental.

That's 90% temper and 10% mental.


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eulalio Flag Girls just wanna have Funt 11 Jul 05 12.28pm Send a Private Message to eulalio Add eulalio as a friend

Shortly after September 11 2001, when the slightest mention of a link between US foreign policy and the terrorist attacks brought accusations of heartless heresy, the then US national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice got to work. Between public displays of grief and solemnity she managed to round up the senior staff of the National Security Council and ask them to think seriously about "how do you capitalise on these opportunities" to fundamentally change American doctrine and the shape of the world. In an interview with the New Yorker six months later, she said the US no longer had a problem defining its post-cold war role. "I think September 11 was one of those great earthquakes that clarify and sharpen. Events are in much sharper relief."
For those interested in keeping the earth intact in its present shape so that we might one day live on it peacefully, the bombings of July 7 provide no such "opportunities". They do not "clarify" or "sharpen" but muddy and bloody already murky waters. As the identities of the missing emerge, we move from a statistical body count to the tragedy of human loss - brothers, mothers, lovers and daughters cruelly blown away as they headed to work. The space to mourn these losses must be respected. The demand that we abandon rational thought, contextual analysis and critical appraisal of why this happened and what we can do to limit the chances that it will happen again, should not. To explain is not to excuse; to criticise is not to capitulate.

We know what took place. A group of people, with no regard for law, order or our way of life, came to our city and trashed it. With scant regard for human life or political consequences, employing violence as their sole instrument of persuasion, they slaughtered innocent people indiscriminately. They left us feeling unified in our pain and resolute in our convictions, effectively creating a community where one previously did not exist. With the killers probably still at large there is no civil liberty so vital that some would not surrender it in pursuit of them and no punishment too harsh that some might not sanction if we found them.

The trouble is there is nothing in the last paragraph that could not just as easily be said from Falluja as it could from London. The two should not be equated - with over 1,000 people killed or injured, half its housing wrecked and almost every school and mosque damaged or flattened, what Falluja went through at the hands of the US military, with British support, was more deadly. But they can and should be compared. We do not have a monopoly on pain, suffering, rage or resilience. Our blood is no redder, our backbones are no stiffer, nor our tear ducts more productive than the people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those whose imagination could not stretch to empathise with the misery we have caused in the Gulf now have something closer to home to identify with. "Collateral damage" always has a human face: its relatives grieve; its communities have memory and demand action.

These basic humanistic precepts are the principle casualties of fundamentalism, whether it is wedded to Muhammad or the market. They were clearly absent from the minds of those who bombed London last week. They are no less absent from the minds of those who have pursued the war on terror for the past four years.

Tony Blair is not responsible for the more than 50 dead and 700 injured on Thursday. In all likelihood, "jihadists" are. But he is partly responsible for the 100,000 people who have been killed in Iraq. And even at this early stage there is a far clearer logic linking these two events than there ever was tying Saddam Hussein to either 9/11 or weapons of mass destruction.

It is no mystery why those who have backed the war in Iraq would refute this connection. With each and every setback, from the lack of UN endorsement right through to the continuing strength of the insurgency, they go ever deeper into denial. Their sophistry has now mutated into a form of political autism - their ability to engage with the world around them has been severely impaired by their adherence to a flawed and fatal project. To say that terrorists would have targeted us even if we hadn't gone into Iraq is a bit like a smoker justifying their habit by saying, "I could get run over crossing the street tomorrow." True, but the certain health risks of cigarettes are more akin to playing chicken on a four-lane highway. They have the effect of bringing that fatal, fateful day much closer than it might otherwise be.

Similarly, invading Iraq clearly made us a target. Did Downing Street really think it could declare a war on terror and that terror would not fight back? That, in itself, is not a reason to withdraw troops if having them there is the right thing to do. But since it isn't and never was, it provides a compelling reason to change course before more people are killed here or there. So the prime minister got it partly right on Saturday when he said: "I think this type of terrorism has very deep roots. As well as dealing with the consequences of this - trying to protect ourselves as much as any civil society can - you have to try to pull it up by its roots."

What he would not acknowledge is that his alliance with President George Bush has been sowing the seeds and fertilising the soil in the Gulf, for yet more to grow. The invasion and occupation of Iraq - illegal, immoral and inept - provided the Arab world with one more legitimate grievance. Bush laid down the gauntlet: you're either with us or with the terrorists. A small minority of young Muslims looked at the values displayed in Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo Bay and Camp Bread Basket - and made their choice. The war helped transform Iraq from a vicious, secular dictatorship with no links to international terrorism into a magnet and training ground for those determined to commit terrorist atrocities. Meanwhile, it diverted our attention and resources from the very people we should have been fighting - al-Qaida.

Leftwing axe-grinding? As early as February 2003 the joint intelligence committee reported that al-Qaida and associated groups continued to represent "by far the greatest terrorist threat to western interests, and that that threat would be heightened by military action against Iraq". At the World Economic Forum last year, Gareth Evans, the former Australian foreign minister and head of the International Crisis Group thinktank, said: "The net result of the war on terror is more war and more terror. Look at Iraq: the least plausible reason for going to war - terrorism - has been its most harrowing consequence."

None of that justifies what the bombers did. But it does help explain how we got where we are and what we need to do to move to a safer place. If Blair didn't know the invasion would make us more vulnerable, he is negligent; if he did, then he should take responsibility for his part in this. That does not mean we deserved what was coming. It means we deserve a lot better.

 

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NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 11 Jul 05 9.26pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 11 Jul 2005 12:28pm
The trouble is there is nothing in the last paragraph that could not just as easily be said from Falluja as it could from London. The two should not be equated - with over 1,000 people killed or injured, half its housing wrecked and almost every school and mosque damaged or flattened, what Falluja went through at the hands of the US military, with British support, was more deadly. But they can and should be compared. We do not have a monopoly on pain, suffering, rage or resilience. Our blood is no redder, our backbones are no stiffer, nor our tear ducts more productive than the people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those whose imagination could not stretch to empathise with the misery we have caused in the Gulf now have something closer to home to identify with. "Collateral damage" always has a human face: its relatives grieve; its communities have memory and demand action.

Tony Blair is not responsible for the more than 50 dead and 700 injured on Thursday. In all likelihood, "jihadists" are. But he is partly responsible for the 100,000 people who have been killed in Iraq. And even at this early stage there is a far clearer logic linking these two events than there ever was tying Saddam Hussein to either 9/11 or weapons of mass destruction.

It is no mystery why those who have backed the war in Iraq would refute this connection. With each and every setback, from the lack of UN endorsement right through to the continuing strength of the insurgency, they go ever deeper into denial. Their sophistry has now mutated into a form of political autism - their ability to engage with the world around them has been severely impaired by their adherence to a flawed and fatal project. To say that terrorists would have targeted us even if we hadn't gone into Iraq is a bit like a smoker justifying their habit by saying, "I could get run over crossing the street tomorrow." True, but the certain health risks of cigarettes are more akin to playing chicken on a four-lane highway. They have the effect of bringing that fatal, fateful day much closer than it might otherwise be.

Similarly, invading Iraq clearly made us a target. Did Downing Street really think it could declare a war on terror and that terror would not fight back? That, in itself, is not a reason to withdraw troops if having them there is the right thing to do. But since it isn't and never was, it provides a compelling reason to change course before more people are killed here or there. So the prime minister got it partly right on Saturday when he said: "I think this type of terrorism has very deep roots. As well as dealing with the consequences of this - trying to protect ourselves as much as any civil society can - you have to try to pull it up by its roots."

What he would not acknowledge is that his alliance with President George Bush has been sowing the seeds and fertilising the soil in the Gulf, for yet more to grow. The invasion and occupation of Iraq - illegal, immoral and inept - provided the Arab world with one more legitimate grievance. Bush laid down the gauntlet: you're either with us or with the terrorists. A small minority of young Muslims looked at the values displayed in Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo Bay and Camp Bread Basket - and made their choice. The war helped transform Iraq from a vicious, secular dictatorship with no links to international terrorism into a magnet and training ground for those determined to commit terrorist atrocities. Meanwhile, it diverted our attention and resources from the very people we should have been fighting - al-Qaida.

The difference between Falluja and London (I am not trying to say one was worse than the other, they are both appalling): however, according to 400 years of legal and moral arguments, they go back much further but their modern origins came about because of the Thirty Years' War and the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, a state has a monopoly on the use of violence. This effectively brought an end to indiscriminate non-state actors causing chaos; the Thirty Years' War was as destructive as WWII.

Thus, non-state actors (such as Al-Quaeda) cannot legally use force. A specific group (in defence of its home soil) that clearly identifies itself with either a uniform or some other identifying mark such as an armband, this is all clearly stated in the Geneva conventions, can be considered to be legitimate under the terms of international law, history and the UN Charter. Any other such non-state actors have no legitimacy, either legally or morally. I think that is pretty clear. Thus we do have a monopoly on the use of violence when compared to Al-Quaida and other such groups.

Regarding the UN and the the Iraq invasion (I am not arguing that the invasion was right). Again, legally a decision from the security council is NOT required for a state to take action. If one looks at the history of the UN, it has rarely provided a decision, and when it has it has frequently been months after the event. So the UN has no legal history to back up that argument. In the case of Iraq, there was a resolution which permitted the use of all means to enforce Iraqi compliance. This might be a morally weak argument, but according to a Professor of International Law at Cambridge (I can't think of his name, I met him at a dinner) it is still a valid argument because of the lack of any kind of precedent preventing action without the full formal backing of the UN.

Indeed much of the problem of legitimacy comes with the UN, it is has almost never sanctioned the use of force, even in clear cut cases. Indeed, when the UN has put its foot down regarding the use of force it has been farcical (see the events leading up to the Dutch assissting the Serbs in the Srebrenica massacre (I chose it as it has been in the news)). The UN effectively prevented the Dutch soldiers from making a decision, so they were forced into the worst of all options (mind you, had they had a commander with a backbone it still might not have happened). Thus the UN has no case history and an appalling record with these kind of decisions.

Regarding the 100,000 dead. That was a figure thrown around last year, and serious studies have shown the death toll to be nowhere near that (appalling though it still is). Exagerrating the numbers involved only serves to marginalise criticism of what is going on.

You talk as though this all started with the invasion of Iraq. Muslim extremists were murdering westerners in terrorist attacks in the 1970's, 80's, 90's and now 2000's. Indeed, there were localised terrorist attacks in the 20's and 30's! Though one could argue those had more to do with self determination than the current ones. This did not suddenly start with George Bush, Tony Blair and Iraq. The war in Iraq has caused an upsurge in violence. But did you expect that the radicals would sit there quietly and not say anything?

You claim that Iraq had no links to international terrorism. Yet Saddam himself regularly gave money (25,000 USD ironically) to the families of suicide bombers from other countries. He openly admitted and gloried in this whilst he was in power, so I find your assertion smacks of denial and revisionism.

Regarding the American detention camps. I think you make a good point about the treatment of some of the prisoners there, and also by some of our own troops. However, quite a number have been prosecuted and they are starting to allow international inspection (not before time, and it is still too limited). How many of those carrying out the beheadings will ever be brought to justice by Al-Quaida? Furthermore, what would you suggest we do with these people? They should, of course, be treated humanely. But where would you put them?

Under the Geneva convention they are clearly illegal combatants and non-state actors and thus have fallen into a legal loophole the Americans have used. Given that they are clearly not fighters as defined under the conventions, legally (if my understanding of the conventions is correct, I will have to check) they can actually be shot. Might that not be a better option. There would probably have been less fuss.

If I have missed anything I apologise, it has been a 14 hour workday.


Edited by NickinOX (12 Jul 2005 7:02am)

 

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Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 12 Jul 05 12.57am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

NickinOX, you've made some, intelligent and knowledgeable posts recently. It's clear to see you do know your stuff and are happy to put down the anti-American posters in such a polite manner, letting the facts speak for themselves!

 

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shaness Flag Not a million miles from here. 12 Jul 05 1.17am Send a Private Message to shaness Add shaness as a friend

Quote Penge Eagle at 12 Jul 2005 12:57am

NickinOX, you've made some, intelligent and knowledgeable posts recently. It's clear to see you do know your stuff and are happy to put down the anti-American posters in such a polite manner, letting the facts speak for themselves!

See! The Yanks ain't all bad are they!

 


I am NOT going to a titty bar with John Inverdale! - Rob Brydon

Just been to a new Japanese/Jewish fusion restaurant. SOSUMI

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Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 12 Jul 05 1.27am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Quote shaness at 12 Jul 2005 1:17am

Quote Penge Eagle at 12 Jul 2005 12:57am

NickinOX, you've made some, intelligent and knowledgeable posts recently. It's clear to see you do know your stuff and are happy to put down the anti-American posters in such a polite manner, letting the facts speak for themselves!

See! The Yanks ain't all bad are they!

He's English, just lives over there.

 

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