The Lib Dems manifesto is comfortably left of anything Labour are proposing - I think they will do reasonably well.

This whole revisionist, counter-theory is premised on one important position. That Hitler would have conquered the Continent and left us and the British Empire alone to flourish and trade with them.

It is true that he admired us; but he did so from the position of avarice rather than detached respect. He coveted what we had.

The theory that they would have left us alone supposes a great deal. The documents discovered after the War that had our Empire taken and divided among Germany and Japan according to the agreed global split would have to be false and a product of denazification and/or leftist propaganda. Equally dubious would be their papers and maps that had the UK as a Reich protectorate (at least initially).

With us impotent and disengaged, the Reich would have eventually suppressed all resistance and murdered the untermensch population on the Continent (they only managed to get about half way) and then continue to murder through personal vendetta or just bad luck (something you seem quite content to accept as the collateral cost of our own self interest).

They would have entrenched and consolidated their position and, when the time was right for them, they would have sent a garrison presence to the UK to ensure greater control. They would have walked in unopposed as they did in Denmark.

And then the round ups would begin. Jews, gypsies etc. of course and then communists, trade union leaders, "intellectuals" and the sick and disabled and so on. There wouldn't be much German involvement in this. As the NAZIs discovered across Europe, there would be a long line of willing local volunteers happy to inform, denounce and take an enthusiastic and active part in the capture, transport and mass murder of non combatants. The Germans had a list with Churchill symbolically top and Noel Coward second!

Any treaties and assurances will not have been honoured. Why honour ours but not anyone else's?

One way or another, we would have become an oppressed Arian/Celtic people speaking German with our children raised to salute and respect the Fatherland.

The Empire was gone because of the War, with or without or involvement in it.

That the Reform numpty said we should have stayed neutral is the showing of true colours. In short, he is the stuff that Reform are made of. People who have learned nothing from our history. I suspect that many of the parents of those who gleefully say that "at last someone to vote for" - people who suffered and experienced the War and lived through its consequences - will be ashamed of their offspring or turning in their graves.

Because it's true, yes.

The fact you still think people haven't 'accepted the referendum' is just hilarious - it's a slogan about 4 years out of date.

I think this is the best argument against this position. I don't regard it as the better outcome but it's sensible to understand that Hitler/National Socialists wanted to control Europe in the sense of being its hegemon.

However, the Germans ended up doing this post war anyway.

Well, of course after we declared war, if the Axis had won, they were going to divide our empire up.....It's exactly what we did with Germany and god knows how many German civilians died 45-48 estimates from 1 to 3 million....In fact there were plans, thankfully out ranked in the US to destroy Germany completely.

If we had taken a neutral position I don't see why we would have been any different to Spain who Hitler had no beef with....and did nothing even after being politely rebuffed by Franco after asking him for help.

Britain was a significant military power. In this typical analysis it made sense to let Hitler have his war with communism and Stalin (where his real interest lay) and build up strength and negotiate later.

From what I've seen Hitler wasn't interested in a war with Britain. We could have saved our position, especially economically in the world and Europe would have continued....Now its future is looking pretty blackpilled.

We had no way to stop that as it happened anyway....just on a far larger scale than would have been the case with a more limited Germany/Russia war.

As for murdering Jews and those they considered undesirables it has been noted that Germany didn't interfere with the policies of other allies or non combatants. For example, Mussolini wasn't interested in rounding up Jews and until Germany intervened in Italy to bring back Mussolini that wasn't happening.

We were hardly Denmark.

Besides to defeat Russia would have taken at least two years, probably more and Germany would have been considerably weakened. If we considered ourselves threatened by Germany....which is arguable....We could have built up strength and guarantees with America.

Perhaps, but as I said, it didn't happen with Franco and Italy was left to its own affairs until Mussolini was replaced....and only then because it meant that without him Italy left the axis.

Unknowable.

Genetically we are part German as is our language. I very much doubt we would have been over ridden like that if we had stayed out of WW2....which probably wouldn't have even reached world war status.

Regardless even if what you say happened at least we would be European....Look what is happening now. What kind of victory is that?

What do you base that on? It would have changed definitely but with a beaten Russia and a resurgent Europe we just don't know what the relationships would have been.

I regard this as rather an insulting paragraph Silver, it's unfortunate that you wrote it.

Much of what you've stated here is based on your own assumptions that support a war that took well over thirty million lives, possibly forty.

This counterfactual didn't come from a Reform spokesman. It's been aired by many intelligent and indeed famous people.

Without enlargement the half a million we lost in that war would have lived....Instead their graves were made certain.....So when you insult people like me perhaps you should reflect upon the hubris that assumes there was no better option.

Edited by Stirlingsays (11 Jun 2024 2.57pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Libdems have quite a bright manifesto, but the tories are piss poor, same old rubbish.

Conservative candidate apologises to voters for government’s ‘poor policies’.

“We have let you down – I am so very sorry.

Tunbridge Wells new candidate, also surprising admission from Sunak that it has become more difficult to get a home in the 14 years of tory rule.

Edited by steeleye20 (11 Jun 2024 5.09pm)

Its a not unreasonable observation although I suspect the numbers are closer than you think.

For me, Brexit became increasingly important AFTER the referendum was won because of the concerted effort to have my vote rendered null and void with the large-scale abuse heaped upon people who voted to leave Let's not forget the ferocity of the Remain camp afterwards with even her Majestys Opposition actively promoting a second referendum in the run-up to our departure.

Given what I still see as the massive institutional resistance to making Brexit a success then yes, I still see it as something that matters because of the damage it did to the confidence that many people had in our system.

We left the EU in the end but after far, far more of a struggle than it should have been once the result from June 23rd 2016 was known.

And this fissure in British society remains. Probably always will do.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.