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Spiderman Horsham 16 Jul 23 1.39pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
We have a chronic skills shortage and wage pull inflation partly a consequence of this. That you hail a drop in literate, enterprising Europeans coming here as a good thing... Do you actually know anything about the EEA Family Permit. Was one of the most abused ways to gain entry into the UK. UK citizens who wanted to obtain a visa for their spouse, have to pay several hundred pounds, together with producing evidence of maintenance and accommodation. To obtain the gratis EEA Family permit, they did not need to produce anything.
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Spiderman Horsham 16 Jul 23 1.41pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
Not sure if you are referring to me but, once again, not people I referred to. Last I checked Albania is not EEA. EEA Family Permits are issued to non-EU nationals who are “closely” related to EU nationals
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PalazioVecchio south pole 16 Jul 23 5.33pm | |
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Generous Dole = locals stay in bed = employers must hire foreigners = increased immigration. The countries with a stingy dole don't get colonised.
Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford |
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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 18 Jul 23 9.55pm | |
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Originally posted by PalazioVecchio
Generous Dole = locals stay in bed = employers must hire foreigners = increased immigration. The countries with a stingy dole don't get colonised. Not sure the dole is that generous these days TBH. Think that's more of a 90s/early 00s position to hold Could do with actually educating and training our 'local' population properly, which might then help with the candidate shortage. Low productivity from the 'locals' though – not sure how you change that.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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silvertop Portishead 19 Jul 23 10.53am | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
I don't understand your point. You are complaining about a job vacancies and presumably you are saying that immigration is the answer. My point is that we have millions of unemployed people and people the government is hiding on the sick list. Yet rather than solve that problem which will also solve your point the answer from the politicians is bring more people into the country. Edited by Badger11 (16 Jul 2023 12.20pm) One of the great mantras of the Brexit movement was that we don't need all those pesky Poles and Latvians coming over here taking our jobs and undermining wages. As an aside, I always considered this argument to be somewhat ironic for 2 reasons. Firstly, it was highly persuasive to a huge voting block comprising a significant proportion of retired people not directly affected by this. If they did it for their kids - who had a greater propensity to vote Remain - then they were not doing it for their kids (please don't tire me with my kids voted Leave too - you know what I mean). The other irony was that those same grey/blue voters whose views are overwhelmingly right and who vote Tory every election regardless, were genuinely justifying their vote based on this ultra left protectionism. Remember, the unions were passionately against joining the EEC back in the 1970s partly for this very reason. As posters like Stirling correctly articulate, "right" and "left" are largely obscured terms these days, but generally the free market operating as naturally as it can with limited government intervention is associated with the right. And that includes the free movement of people. Thus, I was and remain a supporter of light touch free market economics. We do well, the Poles come. Some settle and stay. We do bad, a huge chunk of Poles go back home. That is what actually happened, and our economy did very well while this operated. Builders grumbled about lowering prices on the sites and there was the inevitable resource inertia while housing etc. adjusted, but I believe it worked very well. And finally (sorry) to your point. I genuinely think it is a myth peddled by unscrupulous politicians that we don't need them foreign labourers, we can train our own. There is a huge pool of over 600,000 people who are long term sick and classified as essentially "unemployable". Many of them are older folk and many are actually ill. The theory that all of them are able to be trained for a reasonable input of resources and/or actually desire to get back in the workplace is frankly bollox. I want them all willing and able to fill the vacancies and I support any sensible scheme that will lead to that, but we are only talking about a % of those 600,000. And if we had free movement, would employers take them? In many cases, yes. In many cases, no. Free movement would only hinder those who can genuinely be trained and who are genuinely focused on working if the government decides not to invest in their training as them cheap Latvians can fill the roles. That is not a problem that was resolved by leaving the EU, it is a problem that should have been resolved by better allocation of funds. And finally, statistics. If we say that 300,000 can be returned back into the market by the reasonable investment of public funding (and let us artificially assume for these purposes that £X billion was invested today and that 300,000 become immediately available for the very vacancies out there) that still leaves about 800,000 unfilled vacancies. It is only a part fix. Free movement would better fill the gap. At present there is not enough to go around. Those politicians who stand in front of the mic and spout bite-sized easily digestible comments about training our own are the very same politicians who then back investment in popular vote-winning causes like the NHS where that spend has the inevitable opportunity cost of nothing being spent on retraining.
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silvertop Portishead 19 Jul 23 11.05am | |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
EEA Family Permits are issued to non-EU nationals who are “closely” related to EU nationals I will belatedly respond to both your posts in one if that's OK? I am aware that you are better placed to understand this than I. I get my information second hand, including from my sister in law who used to work for Border Control and has told a few horror stories of her experience. We need control, of course, every country has border control. And it needs to be better resourced and organized. However, indulge me for a moment. What sort of numbers of non-EU nationals who slipped in under the "closely related" category are we talking about? And what type of person are we discussing? Is he a dole-sponging criminal, or an English-speaking Japanese physicist married to a French woman? Or something in between? And what is the consequence to the nation of those non-EU nationals legitimately slipping through under this regulation? Not an easy one to answer. And finally, if there is substantial abuse and it had a negative impact, did we have to leave the EU to stop it? Would it not have been better resolved through regulatory change; perhaps change we were able to make unilaterally under EU law? Has there been a sledgehammer to crack the nut?
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georgenorman 19 Jul 23 11.08am | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
One of the great mantras of the Brexit movement was that we don't need all those pesky Poles and Latvians coming over here taking our jobs and undermining wages. As an aside, I always considered this argument to be somewhat ironic for 2 reasons. Firstly, it was highly persuasive to a huge voting block comprising a significant proportion of retired people not directly affected by this. If they did it for their kids - who had a greater propensity to vote Remain - then they were not doing it for their kids (please don't tire me with my kids voted Leave too - you know what I mean). The other irony was that those same grey/blue voters whose views are overwhelmingly right and who vote Tory every election regardless, were genuinely justifying their vote based on this ultra left protectionism. Remember, the unions were passionately against joining the EEC back in the 1970s partly for this very reason. As posters like Stirling correctly articulate, "right" and "left" are largely obscured terms these days, but generally the free market operating as naturally as it can with limited government intervention is associated with the right. And that includes the free movement of people. Thus, I was and remain a supporter of light touch free market economics. We do well, the Poles come. Some settle and stay. We do bad, a huge chunk of Poles go back home. That is what actually happened, and our economy did very well while this operated. Builders grumbled about lowering prices on the sites and there was the inevitable resource inertia while housing etc. adjusted, but I believe it worked very well. And finally (sorry) to your point. I genuinely think it is a myth peddled by unscrupulous politicians that we don't need them foreign labourers, we can train our own. There is a huge pool of over 600,000 people who are long term sick and classified as essentially "unemployable". Many of them are older folk and many are actually ill. The theory that all of them are able to be trained for a reasonable input of resources and/or actually desire to get back in the workplace is frankly bollox. I want them all willing and able to fill the vacancies and I support any sensible scheme that will lead to that, but we are only talking about a % of those 600,000. And if we had free movement, would employers take them? In many cases, yes. In many cases, no. Free movement would only hinder those who can genuinely be trained and who are genuinely focused on working if the government decides not to invest in their training as them cheap Latvians can fill the roles. That is not a problem that was resolved by leaving the EU, it is a problem that should have been resolved by better allocation of funds. And finally, statistics. If we say that 300,000 can be returned back into the market by the reasonable investment of public funding (and let us artificially assume for these purposes that £X billion was invested today and that 300,000 become immediately available for the very vacancies out there) that still leaves about 800,000 unfilled vacancies. It is only a part fix. Free movement would better fill the gap. At present there is not enough to go around. Those politicians who stand in front of the mic and spout bite-sized easily digestible comments about training our own are the very same politicians who then back investment in popular vote-winning causes like the NHS where that spend has the inevitable opportunity cost of nothing being spent on retraining. The main reason that people of all ages voted to leave the EU was not immigration. It was so that elected representatives in the UK could make the laws that govern the UK.
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Badger11 Beckenham 19 Jul 23 11.41am | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
One of the great mantras of the Brexit movement was that we don't need all those pesky Poles and Latvians coming over here taking our jobs and undermining wages. As an aside, I always considered this argument to be somewhat ironic for 2 reasons. Firstly, it was highly persuasive to a huge voting block comprising a significant proportion of retired people not directly affected by this. If they did it for their kids - who had a greater propensity to vote Remain - then they were not doing it for their kids (please don't tire me with my kids voted Leave too - you know what I mean). The other irony was that those same grey/blue voters whose views are overwhelmingly right and who vote Tory every election regardless, were genuinely justifying their vote based on this ultra left protectionism. Remember, the unions were passionately against joining the EEC back in the 1970s partly for this very reason. As posters like Stirling correctly articulate, "right" and "left" are largely obscured terms these days, but generally the free market operating as naturally as it can with limited government intervention is associated with the right. And that includes the free movement of people. Thus, I was and remain a supporter of light touch free market economics. We do well, the Poles come. Some settle and stay. We do bad, a huge chunk of Poles go back home. That is what actually happened, and our economy did very well while this operated. Builders grumbled about lowering prices on the sites and there was the inevitable resource inertia while housing etc. adjusted, but I believe it worked very well. And finally (sorry) to your point. I genuinely think it is a myth peddled by unscrupulous politicians that we don't need them foreign labourers, we can train our own. There is a huge pool of over 600,000 people who are long term sick and classified as essentially "unemployable". Many of them are older folk and many are actually ill. The theory that all of them are able to be trained for a reasonable input of resources and/or actually desire to get back in the workplace is frankly bollox. I want them all willing and able to fill the vacancies and I support any sensible scheme that will lead to that, but we are only talking about a % of those 600,000. And if we had free movement, would employers take them? In many cases, yes. In many cases, no. Free movement would only hinder those who can genuinely be trained and who are genuinely focused on working if the government decides not to invest in their training as them cheap Latvians can fill the roles. That is not a problem that was resolved by leaving the EU, it is a problem that should have been resolved by better allocation of funds. And finally, statistics. If we say that 300,000 can be returned back into the market by the reasonable investment of public funding (and let us artificially assume for these purposes that £X billion was invested today and that 300,000 become immediately available for the very vacancies out there) that still leaves about 800,000 unfilled vacancies. It is only a part fix. Free movement would better fill the gap. At present there is not enough to go around. Those politicians who stand in front of the mic and spout bite-sized easily digestible comments about training our own are the very same politicians who then back investment in popular vote-winning causes like the NHS where that spend has the inevitable opportunity cost of nothing being spent on retraining. Don't forget that AI and automation will make massive changes to the job market in the next couple of years.
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silvertop Portishead 19 Jul 23 2.06pm | |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
The main reason that people of all ages voted to leave the EU was not immigration. It was so that elected representatives in the UK could make the laws that govern the UK. True, if you wholly trust one poll of 12,000...where immigration came second. And were people honest? If you say immigration are you branding yourself a racist? Take the slightly analogous sexual preferences for males. Polls will usually say 2 attractive females in a bed or something else conventional and manly. Who will openly admit that your actual fantasy is being buried under turds or raping nuns etc.? People lie. Different polls different outcomes and different results over time as voters shift to retrospectively justify their vote. Currently, the flavour is trade deals. That will shift again once people realise the trade argument is also fallacious.
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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 19 Jul 23 2.13pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
True, if you wholly trust one poll of 12,000...where immigration came second. And were people honest? If you say immigration are you branding yourself a racist? Take the slightly analogous sexual preferences for males. Polls will usually say 2 attractive females in a bed or something else conventional and manly. Who will openly admit that your actual fantasy is being buried under turds or raping nuns etc.? People lie. Different polls different outcomes and different results over time as voters shift to retrospectively justify their vote. Currently, the flavour is trade deals. That will shift again once people realise the trade argument is also fallacious. what has oral sex got to do with it ?
I disengage, I turn the page. |
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georgenorman 19 Jul 23 2.25pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
True, if you wholly trust one poll of 12,000...where immigration came second. And were people honest? If you say immigration are you branding yourself a racist? Take the slightly analogous sexual preferences for males. Polls will usually say 2 attractive females in a bed or something else conventional and manly. Who will openly admit that your actual fantasy is being buried under turds or raping nuns etc.? People lie. Different polls different outcomes and different results over time as voters shift to retrospectively justify their vote. Currently, the flavour is trade deals. That will shift again once people realise the trade argument is also fallacious. Even if some did vote leave because of EU immigration, it is hardly racist. Europeans are overwhelmingly of the same same race. If you wanted controls on immigration the only possible way of getting them was to vote Leave, even though our hapless governments have done very little to address the problem since Brexit.
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PalazioVecchio south pole 19 Jul 23 6.32pm | |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
Even if some did vote leave because of EU immigration, it is hardly racist. Europeans are overwhelmingly of the same same race. when a fella in West Croydon , who owns a jerk chicken shop, votes to keep out the Polish ? including their ethnic food shops ? is that racist ? what about when Idi Amin expelled all the Asians ?
Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford |
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