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 luckybuck  16 May 14 11.53pm |
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Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 11.17pm
Quote Kermit8 at 16 May 2014 11.08pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 10.57pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 16 May 2014 10.15pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.09pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.08pm
Having free movement of goods and services, but restricting movement of people is trying to buck he market. You can't have it both ways. Having control of who comes to live and work in this country certainly should be a function of our government. It is not bucking the market, it is choosing which immigrants we want to satisfy our market requirements and rejecting the rest. Yes, there should be free movement of goods and services – if goods are produced that people want at a price they are prepared to pay, then fine. In terms of the Euro, they moved too quickly, before having greater genuine convergence and, most importantly, much more rigorous, independent checks on all the economies before they joined so that they came in at a credible exchange level. But the reality is that it has still survived the biggest economic crisis in living memory and is intact. Imposing (or as you say ‘converging’) a single currency on such divers economies was always doomed to failure. ‘Survived’? Staggering around the ring like a drunken boxer more like. I don't imagine I will manage to persuade you, but living in Euroland is not the Dante's inferno you believe or wish it to be. I don’t imagine you will either, but why would I wish it to be Dante’s Inferno? The problems in most of the Eurozone countries which have needed support was that they were inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt (or at 2 of the 4 in some cases). The tensions within the Eurozone have exposed them much more effectively than had they been outside and simply devalued their currencies until they were worthless. It is the EU that is more inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt than the countries suffering under its yoke. The consequence is that many have had to take a very painful dose of economic reality which, in the long term, is good for us all as potential trading partners. Yes, economic reality does have a habit of imposing itself.
I agree if you are just going to resort to abuse.
In your opinion.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 17 May 14 12.02am |
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Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.36pm
Quote Kermit8 at 16 May 2014 11.10pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
Quote The White Horse at 16 May 2014 10.35pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 10.03pm
One day, this might impact your life but you are only just out of uni and come from a privileged background. The ad hominem stuff didn't really work out for you on Wednesday, why are you having another crack at it? Aren't people who "live in market towns" the experts with lived experience of immigration? By your rules, doesn't my view trump yours now by virtue of my living in one? Whatever my background, I've been in and out of work for over a decade in various low paid jobs, so I'm not completely oblivious to the fact that there are other people looking for work who would be happy to take my job if I don't do it well. Even if I had Huguenot ancestry, the question shouldn't be what my life experience is, but whether what I say has an credibility. I notice you've chosen not to engage with any of my arguments, just said I've failed to recognise the impact of immigration. Presumably you have no issue with Nigel Farage having a view on immigration? Born in Sevenoaks, educated at Dulwich College and a city trader, I daresay he doesn't have that much life experience of immigration by your standards. Since Wednesday, I've been busy at work (you got a job yet?) and mainly doing other stuff in the evenings. I don't get major kicks from crafting out message board posts as some. Where do you live? You clearly are unaware of towns such as Boston who have been invaded by Poles - the type I was referring to - nor do you care. And it IS about life experience and you have bugger all. How can you judge credibility without such. Farage has more than you and doesn't have the blinkers because he sees that is an issue in many parts of the country. You failed to see that is the case at all. Even your party Labour admitted they got it wrong on immigration but you refuse to accept it. Edited by Penge Eagle (16 May 2014 11.06pm) Do you care about Boston? Really? Is that the best you can respond with Kermit? Edited by Penge Eagle (16 May 2014 11.36pm)
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| The White Horse 17 May 14 12.04am |
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Quote nickgusset at 17 May 2014 12.02am
Do you belong to the tea party? Only the one that hangs out in Cucking's dungeon. *yep, that's a testicle joke*
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 17 May 14 12.07am |
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Quote The White Horse at 16 May 2014 11.50pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
Since Wednesday, I've been busy at work (you got a job yet?) and mainly doing other stuff in the evenings. I don't get major kicks from crafting out message board posts as some. Another pointless personal jibe. Aren't these sorts of posts largely what make a lot of "debates" on here completely unreadable? I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but can we not attempt to exclusively discuss UKIP? Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
Where do you live? You clearly are unaware of towns such as Boston who have been invaded by Poles - the type I was referring to - nor do you care. Given the nature of this debate, I'd rather not feed you with further personal information so that we can discuss how legitimate my experience is rather than the actual topic of discussion. If you're happy to provide a list of market towns where residents can't hold a credible view on immigration, I'd be interested to see it. Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
And it IS about life experience and you have bugger all. How can you judge credibility without such. You outlined the life experience requirement as "living in a market town" and I met it. To now claim that is of no relevance is moving the goalposts in the most blatant sense, surely?! Also, I think it's quite obvious that you hold opinions on subjects that haven't directly affected you. Presumably you have a view on asylum seekers, abortion, policing and so on. If you're going to insist on life experience being present for someone to have a credible opinion in a discussion, you're going to end up having fairly brief debates that you (and the other participants) will have to frequently excuse yourselves from. Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
Farage has more than you and doesn't have the blinkers because he sees that is an issue in many parts of the country. You failed to see that is the case at all. Even your party Labour admitted they got it wrong on immigration but you refuse to accept it. So which market town has Nigel Farage lived in? I fail to see what lived experience he has of immigration. You mentioned privilege earlier, I think it's quite obvious Farage has had it pretty easy. Obviously I disagree with the Labour party, who at the end of the day are just trying to represent their supporters who tell them that they have concerns about immigration. Nobody's denying immigration isn't a big issue; I believe only the economy is seen as more important. I would humbly suggest that you're judging people's life experience on the basis of whether they agree with you, rather than judging whether people have life experience before you decide whether they are credible, as you seem to be suggesting.
And you've missed the point re Boston! If you lived in a market town affected by a huge influx of Eastern Europeans like that has happened there which has impacted your life then you would be bothered. But it hasn't happened in your town so you don't care about other people, do you? Living in a bubble and to hell with anybody else's concerns or worries as you are ok, right? Your dismissive nature to people who have concerns about drastic changes in demographics is just as arrogant as Gordon Brown's to "bigoted" Gillian Duffy. And the same as the main party leaders who don't care. Why do you think Farage has become popular? Why do you think rightly or wrongly, they have focused their ad campaign on immigration. There's a reason for it! So the economy is is more important, in your view. However, it doesn't mean we should not discuss immigration. And immigration is the biggest issue affecting the EU debate with the Euro elections coming up. You and the chattering classes like to brush chat of immigration under the carpet "It's not important". Well it is. And it's the Westminster parties' fault for not talking about it that has led to the rise of UKIP and the debate. Farage didn't join UKIP because he was fed up with the immigrants in his town - because there aren't any in Sevenoaks. He did it because he disagreed with the political union! So your analogy simply does not work. Edited by Penge Eagle (17 May 2014 12.12am)
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 17 May 14 12.09am |
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Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.43pm
Even the Left want out of Europe, with the likes of the No2EU party campaigning to get out. I find it strange how Lefties on here don't seem to agree.
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 17 May 14 12.15am |
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Quote nickgusset at 17 May 2014 12.09am
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.43pm
Even the Left want out of Europe, with the likes of the No2EU party campaigning to get out. I find it strange how Lefties on here don't seem to agree.
I thought you would have known about the No2EU group? If not, then you should considering your activism. If they had any backing then they could have united with UKIP and made a difference! The trouble is the far Left would rather act in an aggressive, negative way by hollering abuse and attacking Farage on his travels instead of being positive and debating and forming a credible opposition .
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| luckybuck 17 May 14 12.16am |
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Quote nickgusset at 17 May 2014 12.09am
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.43pm
Even the Left want out of Europe, with the likes of the No2EU party campaigning to get out. I find it strange how Lefties on here don't seem to agree.
No and from reading this thread, even if there was a genuine attempt at a list of pros and cons most people here would have no interest in reading it anyway. When the window dressing is removed, the core truth is that it all comes down to how comfortable you feel around people different from yourself. That in turn comes down to upbringing to a large extent. Clearly fairness and logic too, though they're on the backburner when people feel threatened. Edited by luckybuck (17 May 2014 12.18am)
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| The White Horse 17 May 14 12.17am |
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Quote nickgusset at 17 May 2014 12.09am
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.43pm
Even the Left want out of Europe, with the likes of the No2EU party campaigning to get out. I find it strange how Lefties on here don't seem to agree.
I'll give it a crack: Pros - Protects workers rights and the environment. Reverse pros and cons depending upon politics.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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| Buzzcock In an underground lair near Bright... 17 May 14 12.21am |
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Quote luckybuck at 16 May 2014 11.53pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 11.17pm
Quote Kermit8 at 16 May 2014 11.08pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 10.57pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 16 May 2014 10.15pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.09pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.08pm
Having free movement of goods and services, but restricting movement of people is trying to buck he market. You can't have it both ways. Having control of who comes to live and work in this country certainly should be a function of our government. It is not bucking the market, it is choosing which immigrants we want to satisfy our market requirements and rejecting the rest. Yes, there should be free movement of goods and services – if goods are produced that people want at a price they are prepared to pay, then fine. In terms of the Euro, they moved too quickly, before having greater genuine convergence and, most importantly, much more rigorous, independent checks on all the economies before they joined so that they came in at a credible exchange level. But the reality is that it has still survived the biggest economic crisis in living memory and is intact. Imposing (or as you say ‘converging’) a single currency on such divers economies was always doomed to failure. ‘Survived’? Staggering around the ring like a drunken boxer more like. I don't imagine I will manage to persuade you, but living in Euroland is not the Dante's inferno you believe or wish it to be. I don’t imagine you will either, but why would I wish it to be Dante’s Inferno? The problems in most of the Eurozone countries which have needed support was that they were inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt (or at 2 of the 4 in some cases). The tensions within the Eurozone have exposed them much more effectively than had they been outside and simply devalued their currencies until they were worthless. It is the EU that is more inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt than the countries suffering under its yoke. The consequence is that many have had to take a very painful dose of economic reality which, in the long term, is good for us all as potential trading partners. Yes, economic reality does have a habit of imposing itself.
I agree if you are just going to resort to abuse.
In your opinion.
The people who said that are idiots. I imagine they will be dealt with willingly or for political means. I condemn them.
In the woods there grew a tree. And a fine fine tree was he. |
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 17 May 14 12.23am |
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To White Horse. We both completely disagree on this. However, we live in a democracy and the people need to decide about the in/out question in a referendum. I suspect you don't even want that in case people say OUT!
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| luckybuck 17 May 14 12.24am |
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Quote Buzzcock at 17 May 2014 12.21am
Quote luckybuck at 16 May 2014 11.53pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 11.17pm
Quote Kermit8 at 16 May 2014 11.08pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 10.57pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 16 May 2014 10.15pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.09pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.08pm
Having free movement of goods and services, but restricting movement of people is trying to buck he market. You can't have it both ways. Having control of who comes to live and work in this country certainly should be a function of our government. It is not bucking the market, it is choosing which immigrants we want to satisfy our market requirements and rejecting the rest. Yes, there should be free movement of goods and services – if goods are produced that people want at a price they are prepared to pay, then fine. In terms of the Euro, they moved too quickly, before having greater genuine convergence and, most importantly, much more rigorous, independent checks on all the economies before they joined so that they came in at a credible exchange level. But the reality is that it has still survived the biggest economic crisis in living memory and is intact. Imposing (or as you say ‘converging’) a single currency on such divers economies was always doomed to failure. ‘Survived’? Staggering around the ring like a drunken boxer more like. I don't imagine I will manage to persuade you, but living in Euroland is not the Dante's inferno you believe or wish it to be. I don’t imagine you will either, but why would I wish it to be Dante’s Inferno? The problems in most of the Eurozone countries which have needed support was that they were inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt (or at 2 of the 4 in some cases). The tensions within the Eurozone have exposed them much more effectively than had they been outside and simply devalued their currencies until they were worthless. It is the EU that is more inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt than the countries suffering under its yoke. The consequence is that many have had to take a very painful dose of economic reality which, in the long term, is good for us all as potential trading partners. Yes, economic reality does have a habit of imposing itself.
I agree if you are just going to resort to abuse.
In your opinion.
The people who said that are idiots. I imagine they will be dealt with willingly or for political means. I condemn them. Yes, certainly. Whoever says such comments, whatever the party, they're clearly on a wavelength that doesn't benefit the people they claim to represent.
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| Buzzcock In an underground lair near Bright... 17 May 14 12.29am |
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Quote luckybuck at 17 May 2014 12.24am
Quote Buzzcock at 17 May 2014 12.21am
Quote luckybuck at 16 May 2014 11.53pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 11.17pm
Quote Kermit8 at 16 May 2014 11.08pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 10.57pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 16 May 2014 10.15pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.09pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.08pm
Having free movement of goods and services, but restricting movement of people is trying to buck he market. You can't have it both ways. Having control of who comes to live and work in this country certainly should be a function of our government. It is not bucking the market, it is choosing which immigrants we want to satisfy our market requirements and rejecting the rest. Yes, there should be free movement of goods and services – if goods are produced that people want at a price they are prepared to pay, then fine. In terms of the Euro, they moved too quickly, before having greater genuine convergence and, most importantly, much more rigorous, independent checks on all the economies before they joined so that they came in at a credible exchange level. But the reality is that it has still survived the biggest economic crisis in living memory and is intact. Imposing (or as you say ‘converging’) a single currency on such divers economies was always doomed to failure. ‘Survived’? Staggering around the ring like a drunken boxer more like. I don't imagine I will manage to persuade you, but living in Euroland is not the Dante's inferno you believe or wish it to be. I don’t imagine you will either, but why would I wish it to be Dante’s Inferno? The problems in most of the Eurozone countries which have needed support was that they were inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt (or at 2 of the 4 in some cases). The tensions within the Eurozone have exposed them much more effectively than had they been outside and simply devalued their currencies until they were worthless. It is the EU that is more inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt than the countries suffering under its yoke. The consequence is that many have had to take a very painful dose of economic reality which, in the long term, is good for us all as potential trading partners. Yes, economic reality does have a habit of imposing itself.
I agree if you are just going to resort to abuse.
In your opinion.
The people who said that are idiots. I imagine they will be dealt with willingly or for political means. I condemn them. Yes, certainly. Whoever says such comments, whatever the party, they're clearly on a wavelength that doesn't benefit the people they claim to represent.
In the woods there grew a tree. And a fine fine tree was he. |
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