Mateta sold?

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Mateta sold?

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MrRobbo Chaldon 30 Aug 23 4.03pm
Originally posted by Nicholas91 My opinion on their strengths has long been: Mateta = Physical presence and looks to 'get on the end of things'. Edouard = Fleet of foot, better technically, likes to be 'put through' to finish. Of course neither is completely incapable of the other aspects in case that crops up for some. So far however we've failed to provide either of the aforementioned scenarios with consistency and quality. Therefore hard to tell who's best placed up top! If we are putting neither through on goals nor providing anything for them to get on the end of, they'll both look awful. The slow build up we often exhibit contributes towards this IMHO. A full force of Franca, Eze, Olise, Ayew, Doucoure etc. may well provide the service to make a better informed call, for me anyway. The absence of Wilf, who tbh would always hog a lot of the attention and intention for us going forward, may also provide a more rounded 'team' effort whereby any striker will be afforded more chances. Just a theory nothing more. Edited by Nicholas91 (30 Aug 2023 3.19pm) Completely agree. I've always thought that (when watching JMP in real life) he like to shoot early, little flicked finishes etc. Which just isn't inline with our pedestrian build up. Also not slagging off Olise, but a right footer on the right would be useful. Ayew cross to Edouard last night was almost a carbon copy of the Sheffield goal. Those crosses are soo hard to defend against
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MrRobbo

Chaldon 30 Aug 23 4.03pm

Originally posted by Nicholas91

My opinion on their strengths has long been:

Mateta = Physical presence and looks to 'get on the end of things'.
Edouard = Fleet of foot, better technically, likes to be 'put through' to finish.

Of course neither is completely incapable of the other aspects in case that crops up for some.

So far however we've failed to provide either of the aforementioned scenarios with consistency and quality. Therefore hard to tell who's best placed up top! If we are putting neither through on goals nor providing anything for them to get on the end of, they'll both look awful. The slow build up we often exhibit contributes towards this IMHO.

A full force of Franca, Eze, Olise, Ayew, Doucoure etc. may well provide the service to make a better informed call, for me anyway. The absence of Wilf, who tbh would always hog a lot of the attention and intention for us going forward, may also provide a more rounded 'team' effort whereby any striker will be afforded more chances. Just a theory nothing more.

Edited by Nicholas91 (30 Aug 2023 3.19pm)

Completely agree.

I've always thought that (when watching JMP in real life) he like to shoot early, little flicked finishes etc. Which just isn't inline with our pedestrian build up.

Also not slagging off Olise, but a right footer on the right would be useful. Ayew cross to Edouard last night was almost a carbon copy of the Sheffield goal. Those crosses are soo hard to defend against

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Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 30 Aug 23 4.22pm
Originally posted by MrRobbo Completely agree. I've always thought that (when watching JMP in real life) he like to shoot early, little flicked finishes etc. Which just isn't inline with our pedestrian build up. Also not slagging off Olise, but a right footer on the right would be useful. Ayew cross to Edouard last night was almost a carbon copy of the Sheffield goal. Those crosses are soo hard to defend against I think that's why we see more of Edouard Mr Robbo. I wouldn't dare to comment with confidence on Roy's thinking but I have assumed he prefers Edouard as he wants a striker to be more involved in our style of play and Mateta is less capable of doing so. JPM's strength however is the opposite for me which is just 'shooting on site', so sometimes you do want a striker who's sole intent is to try and put the ball in the back of the net when presented with the opportunity. I suppose it is a case of certain players for certain games with two strategically different options. You sort of end up with two half players though rather than one. The two together however... Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!
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Nicholas91

The Democratic Republic of Kent 30 Aug 23 4.22pm

Originally posted by MrRobbo

Completely agree.

I've always thought that (when watching JMP in real life) he like to shoot early, little flicked finishes etc. Which just isn't inline with our pedestrian build up.

I think that's why we see more of Edouard Mr Robbo. I wouldn't dare to comment with confidence on Roy's thinking but I have assumed he prefers Edouard as he wants a striker to be more involved in our style of play and Mateta is less capable of doing so.

JPM's strength however is the opposite for me which is just 'shooting on site', so sometimes you do want a striker who's sole intent is to try and put the ball in the back of the net when presented with the opportunity.

I suppose it is a case of certain players for certain games with two strategically different options. You sort of end up with two half players though rather than one. The two together however...

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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Frickin Saweet South Cronx 30 Aug 23 4.29pm
Originally posted by Lanzo-Ad Edouard: Lazy, Not over Physical, not much anticipaction, has a dowlness about him, 6-10 Mateta, Harder working, Physical, Good header, reasonable anticipation, happy outlook, 7/10 how much is that happy outlook worth in goals over a season? If we can agree that happy outlook roughly translates to optimism, Mateta might be inclined to think he has more of a chance and gamble/press/chase/close down more than Edouard. Some would say there is evidence to support this. I reckon that could = an additional 2-3 goals over a season, however that may be balanced out by Edouard's slightly more composed finishing, which means it makes bugger all difference.
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Frickin Saweet

South Cronx 30 Aug 23 4.29pm

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Originally posted by Lanzo-Ad

Edouard: Lazy, Not over Physical, not much anticipaction, has a dowlness about him, 6-10
Mateta, Harder working, Physical, Good header, reasonable anticipation, happy outlook, 7/10

how much is that happy outlook worth in goals over a season? If we can agree that happy outlook roughly translates to optimism, Mateta might be inclined to think he has more of a chance and gamble/press/chase/close down more than Edouard. Some would say there is evidence to support this. I reckon that could = an additional 2-3 goals over a season, however that may be balanced out by Edouard's slightly more composed finishing, which means it makes bugger all difference.

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PatrickA London 30 Aug 23 4.41pm
Mateta tends to get his shots away quickly and appears more adept at first time finishes. Edouard got his shot away quickly away at Fulham at last season, but this was a rarity and he usually takes an extra touch and is either robbed or runs into a crowd. Neither are good in the air or particularly effective in link up play. Edouard can display good close control, but he is frequently sloppy in possession even when not under pressure. Edouard is probably the better footballer but Mateta is arguably more effective. Furthermore, to be fair and as others have pointed out, Mateta has never had an extended run in the team. We may never find out if he moves.
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PatrickA

London 30 Aug 23 4.41pm

Mateta tends to get his shots away quickly and appears more adept at first time finishes.
Edouard got his shot away quickly away at Fulham at last season, but this was a rarity and he usually takes an extra touch and is either robbed or runs into a crowd.
Neither are good in the air or particularly effective in link up play.
Edouard can display good close control, but he is frequently sloppy in possession even when not under pressure.
Edouard is probably the better footballer but Mateta is arguably more effective.
Furthermore, to be fair and as others have pointed out, Mateta has never had an extended run in the team.
We may never find out if he moves.

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MrRobbo Chaldon 30 Aug 23 4.49pm
The biggest frustration that we all have is their inability to get involved. As a good example: Antonio isn't IMO as technically good as either of our 2, nor is he a very good finisher. But (from memory, I cant be bothered to check) he was heavily involved in the build up of all 3 of WH's goals at the weekend, by simply being in the right place, running and being a nuisance. If JPM started all 38 games I'd back him to score more, but I'd back us to score more as a team if we had Antonio
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MrRobbo

Chaldon 30 Aug 23 4.49pm

The biggest frustration that we all have is their inability to get involved.

As a good example: Antonio isn't IMO as technically good as either of our 2, nor is he a very good finisher.

But (from memory, I cant be bothered to check) he was heavily involved in the build up of all 3 of WH's goals at the weekend, by simply being in the right place, running and being a nuisance.

If JPM started all 38 games I'd back him to score more, but I'd back us to score more as a team if we had Antonio

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TheBigToePunt 30 Aug 23 4.59pm
Originally posted by MrRobbo The biggest frustration that we all have is their inability to get involved. As a good example: Antonio isn't IMO as technically good as either of our 2, nor is he a very good finisher. But (from memory, I cant be bothered to check) he was heavily involved in the build up of all 3 of WH's goals at the weekend, by simply being in the right place, running and being a nuisance. If JPM started all 38 games I'd back him to score more, but I'd back us to score more as a team if we had Antonio Agreed. What you describe as the ability to get involved in the game is sometimes called 'leading the line', or putting in a shift, or getting stuck in. As you say, effort goes a long way but I tend to think there's also more know-how involved than meets the eye. A decent forward knows when to make a forward run, and when to show for the ball. He occupies two defenders generally through his positioning and movement. He threatens behind the opponent's defence when they play high up the pitch, and offers a target for a ball to feet when they drop off deep. He may even press the opponent's defence when they have the ball. If he can do all that and score 15 goals too, well, he won't be playing for Palace (at least not for long). Your point about doing better with Antonio, even if he scored less than Mateta or Edouard, is a good one. I feel the same way and would welcome the signing of Che Adams for that reason (finances permitting, as ever). I think he'd add more overall, even when scoring a little less than Eduoard might.
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TheBigToePunt

30 Aug 23 4.59pm

Originally posted by MrRobbo

The biggest frustration that we all have is their inability to get involved.

As a good example: Antonio isn't IMO as technically good as either of our 2, nor is he a very good finisher.

But (from memory, I cant be bothered to check) he was heavily involved in the build up of all 3 of WH's goals at the weekend, by simply being in the right place, running and being a nuisance.

If JPM started all 38 games I'd back him to score more, but I'd back us to score more as a team if we had Antonio

Agreed.

What you describe as the ability to get involved in the game is sometimes called 'leading the line', or putting in a shift, or getting stuck in. As you say, effort goes a long way but I tend to think there's also more know-how involved than meets the eye.

A decent forward knows when to make a forward run, and when to show for the ball. He occupies two defenders generally through his positioning and movement. He threatens behind the opponent's defence when they play high up the pitch, and offers a target for a ball to feet when they drop off deep. He may even press the opponent's defence when they have the ball. If he can do all that and score 15 goals too, well, he won't be playing for Palace (at least not for long).

Your point about doing better with Antonio, even if he scored less than Mateta or Edouard, is a good one. I feel the same way and would welcome the signing of Che Adams for that reason (finances permitting, as ever). I think he'd add more overall, even when scoring a little less than Eduoard might.

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radicalsteve ottawa 30 Aug 23 5.10pm
Tend to agree with most views here - but why can't we coach Mateta to jump and head the ball properly, if he had half of Benteke's heading ability he could bag 10 or more a season with his finishing. If he gets a run in the team, imho, he would outshine Edouard, who is lazy and often gets caught offside as he can't time his runs properly and drifts into the wrong position. As other have said, we don't get to see them in training, so at the end of the day we have to bow to Roy and Ray's judgements. I hope Mateta starts on Sunday, just because players should get reward and recognition when they deliver and let's admit, he did save us "egg on face" last night, notwithstanding its been a long time since we had a hat-trick.
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radicalsteve

ottawa 30 Aug 23 5.10pm

Tend to agree with most views here - but why can't we coach Mateta to jump and head the ball properly, if he had half of Benteke's heading ability he could bag 10 or more a season with his finishing. If he gets a run in the team, imho, he would outshine Edouard, who is lazy and often gets caught offside as he can't time his runs properly and drifts into the wrong position. As other have said, we don't get to see them in training, so at the end of the day we have to bow to Roy and Ray's judgements.

I hope Mateta starts on Sunday, just because players should get reward and recognition when they deliver and let's admit, he did save us "egg on face" last night, notwithstanding its been a long time since we had a hat-trick.

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BelfastEagle 30 Aug 23 5.55pm
He can score against a championship team if that…….because that’s his standard.
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BelfastEagle

30 Aug 23 5.55pm

He can score against a championship team if that…….because that’s his standard.

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Lanzo-Ad Lanzarote 30 Aug 23 6.07pm
Glenn Murray used to say that whatever league you in and whoever you are playing, the Goal is the same size. “That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn
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Lanzo-Ad

Lanzarote 30 Aug 23 6.07pm

Glenn Murray used to say that whatever league you in and whoever you are playing, the Goal is the same size.

“That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn

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NEILLO Shoreham-by-Sea 30 Aug 23 6.22pm
Originally posted by Lanzo-Ad Glenn Murray used to say that whatever league you in and whoever you are playing, the Goal is the same size. Ok, but there is the question of the quality of opposition. Glenn had the intelligence to play at Premier League level. Held the ball up. Brought others into play. Scored goals. It's a shame not more of his career was spent there. I don't think Mateta or Edouard are of the same calibre. Old, Ungifted and White
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NEILLO

Shoreham-by-Sea 30 Aug 23 6.22pm

Originally posted by Lanzo-Ad

Glenn Murray used to say that whatever league you in and whoever you are playing, the Goal is the same size.

Ok, but there is the question of the quality of opposition.

Glenn had the intelligence to play at Premier League level. Held the ball up. Brought others into play. Scored goals. It's a shame not more of his career was spent there.

I don't think Mateta or Edouard are of the same calibre.

Old, Ungifted and White

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NE14T 30 Aug 23 11.36pm
I also think Mateta deserves a start on Sunday otherwise you disincentive players on the fringes. However.. get him heading the ball more in practice and running to the back post in anticipation of crosses. He tends to get lost in the box. I’m not sure he’s got great game awareness including the ability to second guess where ball is going to land but you can’t really teach that. Hence get him running to back post in training where he has a better chance especially with his height and Wards overhit crosses. His ability to strike the ball well in open play is undisputed. The beatings will stop when morale improves.
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NE14T

30 Aug 23 11.36pm

I also think Mateta deserves a start on Sunday otherwise you disincentive players on the fringes.

However.. get him heading the ball more in practice and running to the back post in anticipation of crosses. He tends to get lost in the box. I’m not sure he’s got great game awareness including the ability to second guess where ball is going to land but you can’t really teach that. Hence get him running to back post in training where he has a better chance especially with his height and Wards overhit crosses.

His ability to strike the ball well in open play is undisputed.

The beatings will stop when morale improves.

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pssguy 31 Aug 23 12.21am
Originally posted by BelfastEagle He can score against a championship team if that…….because that’s his standard. so the right choice against Wolves
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pssguy

31 Aug 23 12.21am

Originally posted by BelfastEagle

He can score against a championship team if that…….because that’s his standard.

so the right choice against Wolves

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