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Cabinet Reshuffle

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matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Jan 18 11.44am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle


He couldn't recall exact figures, which, given we're talking about a large economy and a wide array of taxes and spending streams, isn't that surprising.

[Link]

Here are the docs you're looking for.

The funding document does not state how the ‘national transformation fund’, the body handling the nationalisation, would be funded.

McDonnell didn’t know the sums full stop. One can only be led to believe, partly because of the lack of such information on the Labour website, because they don’t exist.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Jan 18 11.53am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Why can the private sector afford to provide these services and upgrade infrastructure and a publicly owned enterprise not? Why would it magically be more expensive for the taxpayer if they take on the rewards as well as the risk?

The dogma of private is always best should be consigned to the dustbin of history.

The truth behind nationalisation is that it can be done at low costs as and when current contracts expire. It would actually save money as the taxpayer wouldn't have to pay for the tendering process and compensation for unsuccessful tenders.

Do you know what percentage of government services are outsourced? It’s 15% of the total.

The left’s argument that the right state dogmatically that ‘private is best’ is well overblown.

Nationalisation will always end in disaster in this country. The reason is because a Corbyn Labour government will use nationalised indicutries to further their social aims, rather than running the business for the benefit of the population at large. Coupled with the fact that the likes of McDonnell have no experience of running industry, no concept of the enormity of running energy business in the UK and refuse to contemplate any scenario where the private sector could participate in, what they class as, public services, means that the union controlled, underinvested, piss poorly managed clusterf*** they would produce would diminish Britain’s ability to compete in a globalised market.

The fact is that energy business needs both private and public sector involvement to operate is off message. Plus, a lot of people want less government in their life, not more.

Suck up the leftish dogma if you will but deep down, I believe you know that such a nationalisation programme would end in recrimination, disaster and probably three day week’s.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Jan 18 11.55am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

There's more than 1 way to run a publicly owned venture, the key being don't allow ministers control over the running, but have highly qualified well paid experts in their field do it, but the shareholders are the state.

East Coast is a good example of a very well run government owned public service to disprove your comment that they always run business atrociously. Compare that with Branson's pickle and National Expresses mess with the same line!

Running the East Coast line is nothing like running NPower. The two are not comparable.

Believe your delusion if yo7 must but excuse the rest of us whom will not.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 22 Jan 18 12.03pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Do you know what percentage of government services are outsourced? It’s 15% of the total.

The left’s argument that the right state dogmatically that ‘private is best’ is well overblown.

Nationalisation will always end in disaster in this country. The reason is because a Corbyn Labour government will use nationalised indicutries to further their social aims, rather than running the business for the benefit of the population at large. Coupled with the fact that the likes of McDonnell have no experience of running industry, no concept of the enormity of running energy business in the UK and refuse to contemplate any scenario where the private sector could participate in, what they class as, public services, means that the union controlled, underinvested, piss poorly managed clusterf*** they would produce would diminish Britain’s ability to compete in a globalised market.

The fact is that energy business needs both private and public sector involvement to operate is off message. Plus, a lot of people want less government in their life, not more.

Suck up the leftish dogma if you will but deep down, I believe you know that such a nationalisation programme would end in recrimination, disaster and probably three day week’s.

You clearly have no understanding of the way nationalisation is going to work when it does happen. You seem to think it will just be the same model as in the past.

It's delusions such as this that are a barrier to change and to enable the public to retake control of our own services and infrastructure.

How is that 15% calculated? That sounds like quite a high number. 15% of all of our public services.

It's interesting to note that the majority of rail and bus franchises are owned by the state, just not our own state. The Dutch state own make a profit from our railways to invest in their own through Abelio.


 

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 22 Jan 18 12.05pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Running the East Coast line is nothing like running NPower. The two are not comparable.

Believe your delusion if yo7 must but excuse the rest of us whom will not.

I'm not suggesting you get the same company to operate both the railways and utilities. I'd Suggest perhaps having different groups of people, some experts in running railways running the railways, and others experts in utilities running those. The concept is more that the companies run those services for the benefit of the British public and profits are reinvested not distributed.

 

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 22 Jan 18 12.11pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Do you know what percentage of government services are outsourced? It’s 15% of the total.

The left’s argument that the right state dogmatically that ‘private is best’ is well overblown.

Nationalisation will always end in disaster in this country. The reason is because a Corbyn Labour government will use nationalised indicutries to further their social aims, rather than running the business for the benefit of the population at large. Coupled with the fact that the likes of McDonnell have no experience of running industry, no concept of the enormity of running energy business in the UK and refuse to contemplate any scenario where the private sector could participate in, what they class as, public services, means that the union controlled, underinvested, piss poorly managed clusterf*** they would produce would diminish Britain’s ability to compete in a globalised market.

The fact is that energy business needs both private and public sector involvement to operate is off message. Plus, a lot of people want less government in their life, not more.

Suck up the leftish dogma if you will but deep down, I believe you know that such a nationalisation programme would end in recrimination, disaster and probably three day week’s.


You swerved the question as to why your argument that upgrading infrastructure is expensive is a reason that nationalisation wouldn't work.

Personally I don't care who supplies my energy, but given that it's a natural monopoly it requires state regulation and involvement. Arguably a state owned competitor (UK state not French state) would help increase competition and keep prices reasonable. You could even have regionally owned companies that compete nationally and create a marketplace and profits could then be used locally in the local network.

 

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Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 22 Jan 18 12.13pm Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

I fully endorse the sentiments of 'Matt Himself' in relation to Nationalisation.

Think I will leave it at this as I will only get on my 'Soapbox' about this and the Marxist Labour party and the serious damage they would do to our great country.

I have mentioned before that I stay well clear of the News/Politics forms and hardly ever peruse them because as sure as night follews day they would turn into Willo threads and be de-railed accordingly.

I do enough political pontificating on politics outside HOL (Just ask my wife !) so I am happy to concentrate on the football threads on here.

This is my last thread on this subject.

 

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matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Jan 18 12.18pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

You clearly have no understanding of the way nationalisation is going to work when it does happen. You seem to think it will just be the same model as in the past.

It's delusions such as this that are a barrier to change and to enable the public to retake control of our own services and infrastructure.

How is that 15% calculated? That sounds like quite a high number. 15% of all of our public services.

It's interesting to note that the majority of rail and bus franchises are owned by the state, just not our own state. The Dutch state own make a profit from our railways to invest in their own through Abelio.


Then convince me that my views are wrong.

Open floor to you.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Jan 18 12.23pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle


You swerved the question as to why your argument that upgrading infrastructure is expensive is a reason that nationalisation wouldn't work.

Personally I don't care who supplies my energy, but given that it's a natural monopoly it requires state regulation and involvement. Arguably a state owned competitor (UK state not French state) would help increase competition and keep prices reasonable. You could even have regionally owned companies that compete nationally and create a marketplace and profits could then be used locally in the local network.

As you haven’t got it, or have chosen not to get it, I believe that the complexities of producing & distributing energy in the UK, and the sheer scale of it, means that nationalisation is not the answer.

Why do I think that infrastructure will not be invested in in the event of nationalisation? History is one reason. Secondly, Corbyn’s government will be led by social issues rather than pragmatism, meaning that they will be told by their party to invest taxpayers money in the NHS rather than utilities, as pursuit of their social programme will be paramount. Finally, given that they will have excluded all you private sector involvement in he energy sector, when they realise that they need involvement from the private sector, which will happen, whom in their right minds would work with them?

It will be a clusterf***.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Jan 18 12.25pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

I'm not suggesting you get the same company to operate both the railways and utilities. I'd Suggest perhaps having different groups of people, some experts in running railways running the railways, and others experts in utilities running those. The concept is more that the companies run those services for the benefit of the British public and profits are reinvested not distributed.

I know what you saying but you are deliberately misconstruing my words.

Your concept of privatisation is at best misguided, at worst dangerous Marxist indoctrination that will bring this country to its knees.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 22 Jan 18 12.42pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

I know what you saying but you are deliberately misconstruing my words.

Your concept of privatisation is at best misguided, at worst dangerous Marxist indoctrination that will bring this country to its knees.


You're implying that the private sector has some magic money tree and its involvement to provide finance is necessary. But it would only get involved if it was going to make a profit. Given corporate sector investment is lower than the rate of depreciation, privately owned assets are crumbling and business are not investing in even the most basic means of production. The idea that they will provide the investment required to improve national infrastructure is laughable.

We need concerted social efforts to provide the expertise, labour, investment into providing the services and infrastructure we need.

It's perfectly plausible to have publicly owned competitors in markets for utilities or other public goods/services. If your contention is that private interests would flee in the face of such competition then I disagree. They are perfectly happy to compete against the French state in providing electricity or the Dutch state in providing railway services.

The government has considerable scope to raise the revenue required, through more reasonable taxation, sensible borrowing policies and clamping down on the massive tax avoidance industry. Studies show that such policies have minimal effect on capital flight or brain drains contrary to the dire warnings from politicians funded by tax avoiders or the avoiders themselves.

Our system is broken and the electorate knows it.

 

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 22 Jan 18 12.51pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

As you haven’t got it, or have chosen not to get it, I believe that the complexities of producing & distributing energy in the UK, and the sheer scale of it, means that nationalisation is not the answer.

Why do I think that infrastructure will not be invested in in the event of nationalisation? History is one reason. Secondly, Corbyn’s government will be led by social issues rather than pragmatism, meaning that they will be told by their party to invest taxpayers money in the NHS rather than utilities, as pursuit of their social programme will be paramount. Finally, given that they will have excluded all you private sector involvement in he energy sector, when they realise that they need involvement from the private sector, which will happen, whom in their right minds would work with them?

It will be a clusterf***.

You learn from history and previous mistakes, you don't just do the same thing.

Also transport for instance is very much a key social policy. Transport is a means to achieving social aims, not just a service to be sold for its own sake. It's there to give access to the public at large to employment, care, leisure etc.

Public involvement doesn't mean that the experts disappear overnight and no one has a clue how to run an energy company any more.

History (your good friend) suggests the opposite. When Railtrack was privatised and split up the huge body of highly qualified engineers who worked for Railtrack were put out to pasture and not replaced in sufficient numbers, meaning our rail infrastructure has been left to rot and fallen far behind the level of efficiency and quality you see in continental Europe. It's one of the major reasons why the UK has the 2nd highest fares in Europe but the 3rd highest public subsidy. Thanks to privatisation and underfunding and mismanagement that resulted from it. The privatisation was sold on the promise of signalling technology that still doesn't exist today. Now we have an expensive system where profits are sent abroad to fund European railways as they own most of the operating companies and the UK public has to pay high fares for the privilege.

 

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