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jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Sep 17 2.21pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Understand the sentiment but maybe not that black and white. A male teacher would be sacked if having an affair with a 16 or 17 year old female pupil and it's looking like Sampson's role had an identical boundary that he crossed. His past may just have caught up with him. And should be. Even when its lecturers having relationships with students, there is a question regarding professional ethics, impressionability and pressure and influence that a lecturer has over students. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 21 Sep 17 2.21pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Understand the sentiment but maybe not that black and white.

A male teacher would be sacked if having an affair with a 16 or 17 year old female pupil and it's looking like Sampson's role had an identical boundary that he crossed. His past may just have caught up with him.

And should be. Even when its lecturers having relationships with students, there is a question regarding professional ethics, impressionability and pressure and influence that a lecturer has over students.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Sep 17 2.24pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman If his misdemeanour isn't anything untoward then when is Karren Brady going to get her comeuppance? Isn't she married to a player. I would guess then that there isn't an issue to be found. The problem, which can be a real problem, is if a male coach is using his position as a means to an sexual end - which is very different from being involved in a relationship. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 21 Sep 17 2.24pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

If his misdemeanour isn't anything untoward then when is Karren Brady going to get her comeuppance?

Isn't she married to a player. I would guess then that there isn't an issue to be found. The problem, which can be a real problem, is if a male coach is using his position as a means to an sexual end - which is very different from being involved in a relationship.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stuk Top half 21 Sep 17 2.27pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Understand the sentiment but maybe not that black and white. A male teacher would be sacked if having an affair with a 16 or 17 year old female pupil and it's looking like Sampson's role had an identical boundary that he crossed. His past may just have caught up with him. It's not a youth team and he had the role there from his mid to late 20s. If he'd done what you suggested I highly doubt the investigation would have come to the outcome that he "did not pose a safeguarding risk working in the game" Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 21 Sep 17 2.27pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Understand the sentiment but maybe not that black and white.

It's not a youth team and he had the role there from his mid to late 20s.

If he'd done what you suggested I highly doubt the investigation would have come to the outcome that he "did not pose a safeguarding risk working in the game"

Optimistic as ever

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Hrolf The Ganger 21 Sep 17 2.27pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Understand the sentiment but maybe not that black and white. A male teacher would be sacked if having an affair with a 16 or 17 year old female pupil and it's looking like Sampson's role had an identical boundary that he crossed. His past may just have caught up with him. I understand the issue with duty of care but school is a little different to a football club. Accepting that there might be dim veiw taken toward relationships between players and coach, the good people at Bristol were happy that the matter was closed. The problem with these sort of moral judgments is that in reality, no one has done anything unlawful or even against the rules. It is an employers charter to sack you at their convenience.
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Hrolf The Ganger

21 Sep 17 2.27pm

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Originally posted by Kermit8

Understand the sentiment but maybe not that black and white.

A male teacher would be sacked if having an affair with a 16 or 17 year old female pupil and it's looking like Sampson's role had an identical boundary that he crossed. His past may just have caught up with him.

I understand the issue with duty of care but school is a little different to a football club. Accepting that there might be dim veiw taken toward relationships between players and coach, the good people at Bristol were happy that the matter was closed.
The problem with these sort of moral judgments is that in reality, no one has done anything unlawful or even against the rules. It is an employers charter to sack you at their convenience.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Sep 17 2.28pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Or rather it's common sense. It's obvious, they are sitting ducks. Brady has a relationship with a player and then marries him....nothing. As it should be....Sampson, sacked.....No suggestion at all that he's violent...Gets called a racist....All the team hug him after scoring the first goal against Russia in his last game. Males are sitting ducks. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2017 2.16pm) This is true, males are in a much more vulnerable position - same as male teachers, and as a result have to be a lot more careful I'd imagine. Its not really fair, but then we have a societal history where things like sexual abuse, harassment and sexism have been common place. The balance has maybe swung too far the other way, but that isn't without a reasonable basis. Its a bit like being accused of historic sexual abuse, the failure of society in the past to deal with the issue of sexual abuse can lead to individuals carrying a much heavier weight than they would have had the past been different. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 21 Sep 17 2.28pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Or rather it's common sense.

It's obvious, they are sitting ducks.

Brady has a relationship with a player and then marries him....nothing. As it should be....Sampson, sacked.....No suggestion at all that he's violent...Gets called a racist....All the team hug him after scoring the first goal against Russia in his last game.

Males are sitting ducks.

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2017 2.16pm)

This is true, males are in a much more vulnerable position - same as male teachers, and as a result have to be a lot more careful I'd imagine. Its not really fair, but then we have a societal history where things like sexual abuse, harassment and sexism have been common place.

The balance has maybe swung too far the other way, but that isn't without a reasonable basis. Its a bit like being accused of historic sexual abuse, the failure of society in the past to deal with the issue of sexual abuse can lead to individuals carrying a much heavier weight than they would have had the past been different.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 21 Sep 17 2.31pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 And should be. Even when its lecturers having relationships with students, there is a question regarding professional ethics, impressionability and pressure and influence that a lecturer has over students. I don't agree with how far the law has gone in this area. What I would agree with is that any professional having a relationship with a student is being unprofessional. If that student is underage it becomes a matter of sexual misconduct as well. But the older the student over the age of consent the more this becomes a matter of a lack of professionalism. There are more than a few marriages in America that came from lecturer/student relationships. I don't think anyone is suggesting we break these up and arrest the lecturers. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

21 Sep 17 2.31pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I don't agree with how far the law has gone in this area. What I would agree with is that any professional having a relationship with a student is being unprofessional. If that student is underage it becomes a matter of sexual misconduct as well.

But the older the student over the age of consent the more this becomes a matter of a lack of professionalism.

There are more than a few marriages in America that came from lecturer/student relationships. I don't think anyone is suggesting we break these up and arrest the lecturers.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 21 Sep 17 2.31pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Isn't she married to a player. I would guess then that there isn't an issue to be found. The problem, which can be a real problem, is if a male coach is using his position as a means to an sexual end - which is very different from being involved in a relationship. She didn't start off married to the player. The relationship started after she joined the club. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

21 Sep 17 2.31pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

She didn't start off married to the player. The relationship started after she joined the club.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Sep 17 2.32pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I understand the issue with duty of care but school is a little different to a football club. Accepting that there might be dim veiw taken toward relationships between players and coach, the good people at Bristol were happy that the matter was closed. The problem with these sort of moral judgments is that in reality, no one has done anything unlawful or even against the rules. It is an employers charter to sack you at their convenience. Depends how old the players are, and whether the coach is taking advantage of his position. The people at Bristol shouldn't have been the people to decide, it should have been independent. Unlawful, maybe not, but against the rules, that's a lot harder to determine without seeing the contract and bylaws of employment as a coach and FA regulatory guidelines. Just because something isn't a crime, doesn't mean its by default legal either. We've just had a series of cases come up where 'allegations' were dealt with in house, and that resulted in systematic abuse. No one should be 'policing themselves', if we're going to learn anything from the last couple of generations, its that organisations look to themselves, before they look to the rights of others. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 21 Sep 17 2.32pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Depends how old the players are, and whether the coach is taking advantage of his position. The people at Bristol shouldn't have been the people to decide, it should have been independent.

Unlawful, maybe not, but against the rules, that's a lot harder to determine without seeing the contract and bylaws of employment as a coach and FA regulatory guidelines.

Just because something isn't a crime, doesn't mean its by default legal either.

We've just had a series of cases come up where 'allegations' were dealt with in house, and that resulted in systematic abuse.

No one should be 'policing themselves', if we're going to learn anything from the last couple of generations, its that organisations look to themselves, before they look to the rights of others.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 21 Sep 17 2.33pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Its probably in the bylaws of the FA that sexual relationships between managers and players have to be declared. I tend to agree, however its important to also remember that pressure can play a role in these things. Also what if you break up, and then you find that your not getting picked anymore. Its a minefield. A lot of companies try to limit relationships between staff and their managers (and even other employees) because of the problems it can create when relationships turn sour - Relationships rarely end mutually - and it can create problems in the workplace. I'm sure many people meet their partners at work. I also have a problem with the difference between a 'relationship' and sex with colleagues. If 10 girls in the office want to have sex with you, is that wrong? Don't you think employers have enough control over people already?
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Hrolf The Ganger

21 Sep 17 2.33pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Its probably in the bylaws of the FA that sexual relationships between managers and players have to be declared. I tend to agree, however its important to also remember that pressure can play a role in these things. Also what if you break up, and then you find that your not getting picked anymore.

Its a minefield.

A lot of companies try to limit relationships between staff and their managers (and even other employees) because of the problems it can create when relationships turn sour - Relationships rarely end mutually - and it can create problems in the workplace.

I'm sure many people meet their partners at work.
I also have a problem with the difference between a 'relationship' and sex with colleagues. If 10 girls in the office want to have sex with you, is that wrong?
Don't you think employers have enough control over people already?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Sep 17 2.33pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays She didn't start off married to the player. The relationship started after she joined the club. But its kind of hard to argue that anything inappropriate occurred if they ended up married. That doesn't really seem to be a case of someone abusing their position of authority. Plus maybe they declared their relationship to the club or something similar. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 21 Sep 17 2.33pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

She didn't start off married to the player. The relationship started after she joined the club.

But its kind of hard to argue that anything inappropriate occurred if they ended up married. That doesn't really seem to be a case of someone abusing their position of authority.

Plus maybe they declared their relationship to the club or something similar.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Sep 17 2.35pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I'm sure many people meet their partners at work. I also have a problem with the difference between a 'relationship' and sex with colleagues. If 10 girls in the office want to have sex with you, is that wrong? Don't you think employers have enough control over people already? 33-40% meet their partners at work. I don't think the issue is whether 10 girls in the office want to have sex with you, but whether you use your position as their manager to have sex with them, and as a result treat them differently to the others. And if its in the contract you signed, when you joined - then you're immediately in breach. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 21 Sep 17 2.35pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

33-40% meet their partners at work. I don't think the issue is whether 10 girls in the office want to have sex with you, but whether you use your position as their manager to have sex with them, and as a result treat them differently to the others.

And if its in the contract you signed, when you joined - then you're immediately in breach.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 21 Sep 17 2.39pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 This is true, males are in a much more vulnerable position - same as male teachers, and as a result have to be a lot more careful I'd imagine. Its not really fair, but then we have a societal history where things like sexual abuse, harassment and sexism have been common place. The balance has maybe swung too far the other way, but that isn't without a reasonable basis. Its a bit like being accused of historic sexual abuse, the failure of society in the past to deal with the issue of sexual abuse can lead to individuals carrying a much heavier weight than they would have had the past been different. I have no problem with society accepting that....only in a 'we find it often to be the case' sense....that males and females have differe4nces and that power dynamics can be different and weighed in favour of the male. It's this accepted generalisation that has led to the over reaction the other way. In a grown up society this should not be happening. First team coaches should not be under the same concerns as secondary school teachers. These are employees of private firms of people over the age of consent.....next we would be sacking managers for shagging secretaries. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

21 Sep 17 2.39pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I have no problem with society accepting that....only in a 'we find it often to be the case' sense....that males and females have differe4nces and that power dynamics can be different and weighed in favour of the male.

It's this accepted generalisation that has led to the over reaction the other way. In a grown up society this should not be happening.

First team coaches should not be under the same concerns as secondary school teachers. These are employees of private firms of people over the age of consent.....next we would be sacking managers for shagging secretaries.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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