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coulsdoneagle London 29 Mar 17 7.58pm | |
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Originally posted by susmik
I see that you have got rid of your little rant as it was total bullsh1t anyway. You as a Diplomat in a war zone you gotta be joking. You have shown yourself to be a little bit naïve and a bit childish. If someone shot at you you would fill your pants with the brown stuff. What a total loser you turned out to be. It was an stupid rant and I deleted it. I was being facetious about being in a war zone. I am fingers crossed starting in January in Canberra working on the 2 year Foriegn office and Trade Graduate scheme. I never said I had the mettle to serve, in fact I stipulated that in my first post. My point is I think it's bullsh*t that people can just say, you don't have any experience so you can't criticise the actions of soldiers.
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susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 29 Mar 17 8.19pm | |
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Originally posted by coulsdoneagle
It was an stupid rant and I deleted it. I was being facetious about being in a war zone. I am fingers crossed starting in January in Canberra working on the 2 year Foriegn office and Trade Graduate scheme. I never said I had the mettle to serve, in fact I stipulated that in my first post. My point is I think it's bullsh*t that people can just say, you don't have any experience so you can't criticise the actions of soldiers. I am glad you deleted it because it was a bit stupid. As for commenting or criticising on a serviceman's actions in a war zone I think you need to understand that unless you are getting shot at or in the situation Sgt Blackman was in you really do not have any idea of what goes through your mind or what you might do. I spent 22 years in the Royal Marines and it was not all fun I can tell you as many other service and ex serviceman on this site will tell you. We had/have a job to do and it is not all dancing girls and soft music and drinking. Some times the training you had comes in handy as is the weapon that you hold in your hands. It is not a game and you have to keep your wits about you. Ask dannyh he will tell you. If I was you I would refrain from making statements like you have as you do not know what it is really like to be in that situation. it is not very nice and your adrenalin is going like hell and you make your move or you will end up dead!
Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky. |
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elgrande bedford 29 Mar 17 8.45pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
I read it as the soldier putting the seriously injured fella out of his misery and a nasty and painful end of life. I saw the vid too and still hold to that. Nice one kermit
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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elgrande bedford 29 Mar 17 8.49pm | |
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Originally posted by coulsdoneagle
It was an stupid rant and I deleted it. I was being facetious about being in a war zone. I am fingers crossed starting in January in Canberra working on the 2 year Foriegn office and Trade Graduate scheme. I never said I had the mettle to serve, in fact I stipulated that in my first post. My point is I think it's bullsh*t that people can just say, you don't have any experience so you can't criticise the actions of soldiers. Danny's post was spot on,I have not served in the services,but my son is a serving infantryman and has seen his share.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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Direwolf Lincoln 29 Mar 17 9.52pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
I read it as the soldier putting the seriously injured fella out of his misery and a nasty and painful end of life. I saw the vid too and still hold to that. But that itself is illegal isn't it - however well intentioned?
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Kermit8 Hevon 29 Mar 17 10.51pm | |
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Originally posted by Direwolf
But that itself is illegal isn't it - however well intentioned? Mercy killing is illegal 'yes'. Still was the ethically right thing to do though imo. Can you imagine the kind of death he would have had if just left there? All that blood and whatnot attracting flies, insects, hungry rats maybe.
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croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 30 Mar 17 3.46am | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Mercy killing is illegal 'yes'. Still was the ethically right thing to do though imo. Can you imagine the kind of death he would have had if just left there? All that blood and whatnot attracting flies, insects, hungry rats maybe. Cant imagine how hard it is on the battlefield kermit, but would you post the same thing if it had been one of our guys been told to shuttle off the mortal coil and was finished off by say a syrian soldier and then hear him say just broke the geneva convention guys, this goes no further ok? Would the sun and mail say, they were doing him a favour? or would they say our guys wouldnt act like that?I think once you condone that sort of thing, you cant start condemning same thing if an enemy soldier does it to one of our guys , cant have it both ways unfortunately, but like the marine said, not sure any of us civilians can realy imagine what goes on day to day in the battlefield, only can imagine,i know i wouldnt fancy it!
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jamiemartin721 Reading 30 Mar 17 10.15am | |
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Originally posted by Direwolf
But that itself is illegal isn't it - however well intentioned? Yes, and arguably not really a decision that Blackman was reasonably qualified to make either. His actions around it don't really seem reasonable for someone acting out of mercy either. He did it, because of the effects being in war has on people, and that's something the reality of military courts and governments don't want to address - Because they are responsible for putting young men into those situations for reasons that are increasing, as I age, vague in ethical rationals. The Army especially doesn't want us to see soldiers as ordinary people, put into extra ordinary situations and horrifically stressful situations on a continual basis. No one really has the training to avoid the impact of these situations, the things these men and women will see, be asked to do. No one ever could. Not having been in a war, or fought in one, I can only guess what the effect can be on people. But then how many service men manage not to be committing 'crimes' in warzones? Many of us don't know the effect of being brought up in a violent abusive family environment - but that still doesn't forgive the actions of those that do, it only puts them into a context of understanding. Of course, his sin really was being caught out; and because he was, those who had a responsibility to him, threw him under the bus to protect the PR and approved image of Soldiers as 'supermen' or 'heroes', not ordinary men and women with some specialist training. Diminished responsibility seems to cover it. To me, that makes more sense than murder. But the problem here, really isn't him being tried, but the way he was hung out to protect the image of the military, rather than assessed, helped and treated. His actions were criminal only because of the impact on him of what he was being exposed to and asked to do, by his country and those who deserted their responsibility to him. But really, after the incident, he shouldn't have been on trial for murder, he should have been in treatment for the psychological and psychiatric issues, that war had inflicted on him.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 30 Mar 17 11.05am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yes, and arguably not really a decision that Blackman was reasonably qualified to make either. His actions around it don't really seem reasonable for someone acting out of mercy either. He did it, because of the effects being in war has on people, and that's something the reality of military courts and governments don't want to address - Because they are responsible for putting young men into those situations for reasons that are increasing, as I age, vague in ethical rationals. The Army especially doesn't want us to see soldiers as ordinary people, put into extra ordinary situations and horrifically stressful situations on a continual basis. No one really has the training to avoid the impact of these situations, the things these men and women will see, be asked to do. No one ever could. Not having been in a war, or fought in one, I can only guess what the effect can be on people. But then how many service men manage not to be committing 'crimes' in warzones? Many of us don't know the effect of being brought up in a violent abusive family environment - but that still doesn't forgive the actions of those that do, it only puts them into a context of understanding. Of course, his sin really was being caught out; and because he was, those who had a responsibility to him, threw him under the bus to protect the PR and approved image of Soldiers as 'supermen' or 'heroes', not ordinary men and women with some specialist training. Diminished responsibility seems to cover it. To me, that makes more sense than murder. But the problem here, really isn't him being tried, but the way he was hung out to protect the image of the military, rather than assessed, helped and treated. His actions were criminal only because of the impact on him of what he was being exposed to and asked to do, by his country and those who deserted their responsibility to him. The problem is Jamie, as I mentioned earlier is that he refused to use PTSD / psychiatric issues as a defence as he was concerned how it would look. Now arguably that shows a lack of reasoned thinking but if he was unwilling to go down that route it makes the rest of it academic. There should be regular screening & counseling for troops coming back from war zones
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richard shaw (og)65 my minds eye 30 Mar 17 11.17am | |
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Originally posted by Michaelawt85
Well said. In the heat of battle imo all bets are off . Geneva convention or not the rules of normal life are suspended to a degree. I am not talking about acts such as rape and torture which have been mentioned upthread but life or death situations . They would have done exactly the same thing or worse without a moment's hesitation if it were a reverse situation i`ve just learnt a new word
interviewer " iggy , do you think you influenced anybody?" |
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richard shaw (og)65 my minds eye 30 Mar 17 11.23am | |
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i opened this thread thinking , i know who is going to be saying what and who is going to argue with who , and hoof hearted puts a top hat on it by calling a poster by his first name in a matey way , one of the reasons i rarely frequent HOL any more .
interviewer " iggy , do you think you influenced anybody?" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 30 Mar 17 11.32am | |
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Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch
The problem is Jamie, as I mentioned earlier is that he refused to use PTSD / psychiatric issues as a defence as he was concerned how it would look. Now arguably that shows a lack of reasoned thinking but if he was unwilling to go down that route it makes the rest of it academic. There should be regular screening & counseling for troops coming back from war zones Yes, but in a criminal trial, this decision can be taken by the legal team with the support of forensic psychiatrists - or at the request of the judge in pre-trial reviews. I don't think the screening, counselling and therapy for troops should just stop at returning from war zones, these men need effectively oversight whilst in them. We'd evacuate a wounded solider for treatment, we should extend the same level of care for psychiatric and psychological problems. The situation of modern warfare is very different from that of our grand parents, where there was a reasonable degree of ability to know when and where the enemy would strike and preparation accordingly. With a guerrilla conflict, every minute or every day could very well be an attack. Every bump in the road an ambush, and every one who isn't wearing the same uniform as you could be an enemy combatant or spy. There are no front lines, and that kind of stress level and vigilance is exceptionally damaging to the central nervous system, because the human stress response is only really suited to short term stress. We're asking these men and women to be on an almost 24 period of readiness for engagement in a situation where there are no 'reasonably safe areas'. And the military seems to have made no provision in its planning to deal with this. Despite this being a well documented phenomena dating back to Vietnam (and seen on the Eastern Front in German soliders during WWII where the Soviets used partisans to effect exactly this style of constant threat).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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