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Beanyboysmd 19 Dec 16 2.44pm
Originally posted by chris123 Well not according to the referendum. The oil price has since halved, the SNP is losing support, and a Yougov poll last month had less than the 45% who voted in favour last time, still wanting independence. The 45% is a really naughty stat, it doesnt include the 16-17 year olds who are able to vote in scotland, it also doesnt include the people who were 16-17 when they voted. Im not going to try to work out the numbers but its got to be pretty close to 50-50. Even if yes is still a minority, i think the big swing will take place when article 50 is triggered. The uk is moving a lot of services south so i think they know that indy2 is coming and they probably will probably vote yes. Cant say i blame them, i would vote for anything that took power away from the house of lords and my faith in uk politics in general couldnt be lower...
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Beanyboysmd

19 Dec 16 2.44pm

Originally posted by chris123

Well not according to the referendum. The oil price has since halved, the SNP is losing support, and a Yougov poll last month had less than the 45% who voted in favour last time, still wanting independence.

The 45% is a really naughty stat, it doesnt include the 16-17 year olds who are able to vote in scotland, it also doesnt include the people who were 16-17 when they voted.

Im not going to try to work out the numbers but its got to be pretty close to 50-50. Even if yes is still a minority, i think the big swing will take place when article 50 is triggered.

The uk is moving a lot of services south so i think they know that indy2 is coming and they probably will probably vote yes.

Cant say i blame them, i would vote for anything that took power away from the house of lords and my faith in uk politics in general couldnt be lower...

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 19 Dec 16 2.46pm
Originally posted by matt_himself Time, it's a convenient point of reference and you know that. We are no all blessed with the apparent academic and time blessings you have to refer to a point or argument in a manner that suits your perfect view of 'debate'. Maybe if you stuck to he point, in this case that somepeople are clearly sick of being preached too by privileged celebrities, rather than arguing, or trying to start an argument over semantics, then we all might benefit. With regards to your second point, which is 'whataboutery' of the highest order, what's the point of anything?
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 19 Dec 16 2.46pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

Time, it's a convenient point of reference and you know that. We are no all blessed with the apparent academic and time blessings you have to refer to a point or argument in a manner that suits your perfect view of 'debate'. Maybe if you stuck to he point, in this case that somepeople are clearly sick of being preached too by privileged celebrities, rather than arguing, or trying to start an argument over semantics, then we all might benefit.

With regards to your second point, which is 'whataboutery' of the highest order, what's the point of anything?

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tome Inner Tantalus Time. 19 Dec 16 4.03pm
Originally posted by matt_himself Time, it's a convenient point of reference and you know that. We are no all blessed with the apparent academic and time blessings you have to refer to a point or argument in a manner that suits your perfect view of 'debate'. Maybe if you stuck to he point, in this case that people are clearly sick of being preached too by privileged celebrities, rather than arguing, or trying to start an argument over semantics, then we all might benefit. With regards to your second point, which is 'whataboutery' of the highest order, what's the point of anything? Well, I think the point of anything depends on your objective. You want to leave the EU for the entirely reaosonable reason that you regard it as highly corrupt and in thrall to vested interests. It seems to me that leaving is not necessarily going to achieve your objective, merely reflect an internal battle amongst the elite for influence. So, why support leaving regardless? I think there have been plenty of people concerned that leaving won't provide the real difference to people's lives that leavers hoped. Should that come to pass, then what? That's why your generalisations matter. In assuming all 'lefty hand-wringers' concerns have no value, it seems to me you're doing the same thing as these 'elite preachers' - dismissing people's views. When the reality is that the country is divided in all sorts of ways, and unless we find common ground then a sizeable proportion of the population will resist and nothing gets done. What do you propose? A one and a two...
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tome

Inner Tantalus Time. 19 Dec 16 4.03pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

Time, it's a convenient point of reference and you know that. We are no all blessed with the apparent academic and time blessings you have to refer to a point or argument in a manner that suits your perfect view of 'debate'. Maybe if you stuck to he point, in this case that people are clearly sick of being preached too by privileged celebrities, rather than arguing, or trying to start an argument over semantics, then we all might benefit.

With regards to your second point, which is 'whataboutery' of the highest order, what's the point of anything?

Well, I think the point of anything depends on your objective. You want to leave the EU for the entirely reaosonable reason that you regard it as highly corrupt and in thrall to vested interests. It seems to me that leaving is not necessarily going to achieve your objective, merely reflect an internal battle amongst the elite for influence.

So, why support leaving regardless? I think there have been plenty of people concerned that leaving won't provide the real difference to people's lives that leavers hoped. Should that come to pass, then what?

That's why your generalisations matter. In assuming all 'lefty hand-wringers' concerns have no value, it seems to me you're doing the same thing as these 'elite preachers' - dismissing people's views. When the reality is that the country is divided in all sorts of ways, and unless we find common ground then a sizeable proportion of the population will resist and nothing gets done.

What do you propose?

A one and a two...

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steeleye20 Croydon 19 Dec 16 5.24pm
Originally posted by Beanyboysmd The 45% is a really naughty stat, it doesnt include the 16-17 year olds who are able to vote in scotland, it also doesnt include the people who were 16-17 when they voted. Im not going to try to work out the numbers but its got to be pretty close to 50-50. Even if yes is still a minority, i think the big swing will take place when article 50 is triggered. The uk is moving a lot of services south so i think they know that indy2 is coming and they probably will probably vote yes. Cant say i blame them, i would vote for anything that took power away from the house of lords and my faith in uk politics in general couldnt be lower... I think there is a breach of confidence between politicians and the people that is much deeper than before just couldn't believe anything from them - fake news and fake politicians go together. I think Hamilton Academicals would be my team if I was allowed entry
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steeleye20

Croydon 19 Dec 16 5.24pm

Originally posted by Beanyboysmd

The 45% is a really naughty stat, it doesnt include the 16-17 year olds who are able to vote in scotland, it also doesnt include the people who were 16-17 when they voted.

Im not going to try to work out the numbers but its got to be pretty close to 50-50. Even if yes is still a minority, i think the big swing will take place when article 50 is triggered.

The uk is moving a lot of services south so i think they know that indy2 is coming and they probably will probably vote yes.

Cant say i blame them, i would vote for anything that took power away from the house of lords and my faith in uk politics in general couldnt be lower...

I think there is a breach of confidence between politicians and the people that is much deeper than before just couldn't believe anything from them - fake news and fake politicians go together.

I think Hamilton Academicals would be my team if I was allowed entry

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chris123 hove actually 19 Dec 16 5.34pm
Originally posted by Beanyboysmd The 45% is a really naughty stat, it doesnt include the 16-17 year olds who are able to vote in scotland, it also doesnt include the people who were 16-17 when they voted. Im not going to try to work out the numbers but its got to be pretty close to 50-50. Even if yes is still a minority, i think the big swing will take place when article 50 is triggered. The uk is moving a lot of services south so i think they know that indy2 is coming and they probably will probably vote yes. Cant say i blame them, i would vote for anything that took power away from the house of lords and my faith in uk politics in general couldnt be lower... So you're saying that support for independence is at broadly the same level as 2014?
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chris123

hove actually 19 Dec 16 5.34pm

Originally posted by Beanyboysmd

The 45% is a really naughty stat, it doesnt include the 16-17 year olds who are able to vote in scotland, it also doesnt include the people who were 16-17 when they voted.

Im not going to try to work out the numbers but its got to be pretty close to 50-50. Even if yes is still a minority, i think the big swing will take place when article 50 is triggered.

The uk is moving a lot of services south so i think they know that indy2 is coming and they probably will probably vote yes.

Cant say i blame them, i would vote for anything that took power away from the house of lords and my faith in uk politics in general couldnt be lower...

So you're saying that support for independence is at broadly the same level as 2014?

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Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 19 Dec 16 5.51pm
Originally posted by chris123 So you're saying that support for independence is at broadly the same level as 2014? it might be broadly where opinion was on the day of the referendum but it is 10 to 15% above where it was twelve months before that referendum so they are starting from a higher base and would have every expectation of improving their position especially given they can review the economic arguments whereby they were asking for independence but demanding that London (through the Bank of England) continued to control their economy. A nonsense that deserved to lose them the vote One of the two sides of the argument has peaked. I wonder which one.
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Sedlescombe

Sedlescombe 19 Dec 16 5.51pm

Originally posted by chris123

So you're saying that support for independence is at broadly the same level as 2014?

it might be broadly where opinion was on the day of the referendum but it is 10 to 15% above where it was twelve months before that referendum so they are starting from a higher base and would have every expectation of improving their position especially given they can review the economic arguments whereby they were asking for independence but demanding that London (through the Bank of England) continued to control their economy. A nonsense that deserved to lose them the vote

One of the two sides of the argument has peaked. I wonder which one.

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steeleye20 Croydon 19 Dec 16 6.02pm
Originally posted by Sedlescombe it might be broadly where opinion was on the day of the referendum but it is 10 to 15% above where it was twelve months before that referendum so they are starting from a higher base and would have every expectation of improving their position especially given they can review the economic arguments whereby they were asking for independence but demanding that London (through the Bank of England) continued to control their economy. A nonsense that deserved to lose them the vote One of the two sides of the argument has peaked. I wonder which one. That's a bit odd when Mr.Carney and the Bank of England are being blamed for much of the economic state....
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steeleye20

Croydon 19 Dec 16 6.02pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

One of the two sides of the argument has peaked. I wonder which one.

That's a bit odd when Mr.Carney and the Bank of England are being blamed for much of the economic state....

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Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 19 Dec 16 6.07pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 That's a bit odd when Mr.Carney and the Bank of England are being blamed for much of the economic state.... It was a nonsense of an argument though the criticism of Carney is entirely political because he backed the wrong horse in the EU referendum
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Sedlescombe

Sedlescombe 19 Dec 16 6.07pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

That's a bit odd when Mr.Carney and the Bank of England are being blamed for much of the economic state....

It was a nonsense of an argument though the criticism of Carney is entirely political because he backed the wrong horse in the EU referendum

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Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 19 Dec 16 6.13pm
Originally posted by Hoof Hearted Most Scots want to be independent, but the clever ones know what a good deal they get from being a part of UK. They represent just 7% of the UK population. The Barnett formula means they get more "benefits" per head than English people do. Besides, economically they would not be able to sustain their standard of living they enjoy now if they had to rely on themselves to generate the income they need to survive. Oil prices low, the threat of the Royal Navy moving their HQ to Portsmouth/Plymouth rather than Faslane on the Clyde. Sturgeon/Salmond are just opportunists looking out for themselves... they couldn't give a fcuk about the welfare of the Scottish people. The Scottish economy would have tough times if it voted YEs and the proposals from Salmond last time based upon an inflated oil price were a nonsense. Even if the argument about independence came down to economics - and in my view it shouldn't - After 250 years of union you are saying that Scotland cant support its standard of living - surely that is a reason to leave and take control of your own affairs rather than staying in a relationship which as you describe is failing.
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Sedlescombe

Sedlescombe 19 Dec 16 6.13pm

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

Most Scots want to be independent, but the clever ones know what a good deal they get from being a part of UK.

They represent just 7% of the UK population.

The Barnett formula means they get more "benefits" per head than English people do.

Besides, economically they would not be able to sustain their standard of living they enjoy now if they had to rely on themselves to generate the income they need to survive.

Oil prices low, the threat of the Royal Navy moving their HQ to Portsmouth/Plymouth rather than Faslane on the Clyde.

Sturgeon/Salmond are just opportunists looking out for themselves... they couldn't give a fcuk about the welfare of the Scottish people.

The Scottish economy would have tough times if it voted YEs and the proposals from Salmond last time based upon an inflated oil price were a nonsense.

Even if the argument about independence came down to economics - and in my view it shouldn't - After 250 years of union you are saying that Scotland cant support its standard of living - surely that is a reason to leave and take control of your own affairs rather than staying in a relationship which as you describe is failing.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 28 Dec 16 2.58pm
I suspect that the exit will be an administrative disaster. I can't see the government upping funding to the civil service to recruit resources, and the civil service is pretty much understaffed as it is, with low new staff retention. Brexit is going to put an incredible pressure on the civil service to resolve very complex issues, laws and rulings, in a very short space of time. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 28 Dec 16 2.58pm

I suspect that the exit will be an administrative disaster. I can't see the government upping funding to the civil service to recruit resources, and the civil service is pretty much understaffed as it is, with low new staff retention.

Brexit is going to put an incredible pressure on the civil service to resolve very complex issues, laws and rulings, in a very short space of time.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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steeleye20 Croydon 28 Dec 16 3.25pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I suspect that the exit will be an administrative disaster. I can't see the government upping funding to the civil service to recruit resources, and the civil service is pretty much understaffed as it is, with low new staff retention. Brexit is going to put an incredible pressure on the civil service to resolve very complex issues, laws and rulings, in a very short space of time. The Civil Service Brexit Administrative Policy : Yes, yes, yes, I do see that there is a real dilemma here. In that, while it has been government policy to regard policy as a responsibility of Ministers and administration as a responsibility of Officials, the questions of administrative policy can cause confusion between the policy of administration and the administration of policy, especially when responsibility for the administration of the policy of administration conflicts, or overlaps with, responsibility for the policy of the administration of policy. Apologies to Sir Humphrey.
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steeleye20

Croydon 28 Dec 16 3.25pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Brexit is going to put an incredible pressure on the civil service to resolve very complex issues, laws and rulings, in a very short space of time.

The Civil Service Brexit Administrative Policy
: Yes, yes, yes, I do see that there is a real dilemma here. In that, while it has been government policy to regard policy as a responsibility of Ministers and administration as a responsibility of Officials, the questions of administrative policy can cause confusion between the policy of administration and the administration of policy, especially when responsibility for the administration of the policy of administration conflicts, or overlaps with, responsibility for the policy of the administration of policy.
Apologies to Sir Humphrey.

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chris123 hove actually 28 Dec 16 4.27pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I suspect that the exit will be an administrative disaster. I can't see the government upping funding to the civil service to recruit resources, and the civil service is pretty much understaffed as it is, with low new staff retention. Brexit is going to put an incredible pressure on the civil service to resolve very complex issues, laws and rulings, in a very short space of time. I suspect it will be a challenge, but hope the resulting exit will create as many opportunities as challenges.
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chris123

hove actually 28 Dec 16 4.27pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Brexit is going to put an incredible pressure on the civil service to resolve very complex issues, laws and rulings, in a very short space of time.

I suspect it will be a challenge, but hope the resulting exit will create as many opportunities as challenges.

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