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 The White Horse  16 May 14 10.35pm |
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Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 10.03pm
One day, this might impact your life but you are only just out of uni and come from a privileged background. The ad hominem stuff didn't really work out for you on Wednesday, why are you having another crack at it? Aren't people who "live in market towns" the experts with lived experience of immigration? By your rules, doesn't my view trump yours now by virtue of my living in one? Whatever my background, I've been in and out of work for over a decade in various low paid jobs, so I'm not completely oblivious to the fact that there are other people looking for work who would be happy to take my job if I don't do it well. Even if I had Huguenot ancestry, the question shouldn't be what my life experience is, but whether what I say has an credibility. I notice you've chosen not to engage with any of my arguments, just said I've failed to recognise the impact of immigration. Presumably you have no issue with Nigel Farage having a view on immigration? Born in Sevenoaks, educated at Dulwich College and a city trader, I daresay he doesn't have that much life experience of immigration by your standards.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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| kangel 16 May 14 10.57pm |
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Quote SloveniaDave at 16 May 2014 10.15pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.09pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.08pm
Having free movement of goods and services, but restricting movement of people is trying to buck he market. You can't have it both ways. Having control of who comes to live and work in this country certainly should be a function of our government. It is not bucking the market, it is choosing which immigrants we want to satisfy our market requirements and rejecting the rest. Yes, there should be free movement of goods and services – if goods are produced that people want at a price they are prepared to pay, then fine. In terms of the Euro, they moved too quickly, before having greater genuine convergence and, most importantly, much more rigorous, independent checks on all the economies before they joined so that they came in at a credible exchange level. But the reality is that it has still survived the biggest economic crisis in living memory and is intact. Imposing (or as you say ‘converging’) a single currency on such divers economies was always doomed to failure. ‘Survived’? Staggering around the ring like a drunken boxer more like. I don't imagine I will manage to persuade you, but living in Euroland is not the Dante's inferno you believe or wish it to be. I don’t imagine you will either, but why would I wish it to be Dante’s Inferno? The problems in most of the Eurozone countries which have needed support was that they were inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt (or at 2 of the 4 in some cases). The tensions within the Eurozone have exposed them much more effectively than had they been outside and simply devalued their currencies until they were worthless. It is the EU that is more inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt than the countries suffering under its yoke. The consequence is that many have had to take a very painful dose of economic reality which, in the long term, is good for us all as potential trading partners. Yes, economic reality does have a habit of imposing itself.
I agree if you are just going to resort to abuse.
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 16 May 14 11.04pm |
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Quote The White Horse at 16 May 2014 10.35pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 10.03pm
One day, this might impact your life but you are only just out of uni and come from a privileged background. The ad hominem stuff didn't really work out for you on Wednesday, why are you having another crack at it? Aren't people who "live in market towns" the experts with lived experience of immigration? By your rules, doesn't my view trump yours now by virtue of my living in one? Whatever my background, I've been in and out of work for over a decade in various low paid jobs, so I'm not completely oblivious to the fact that there are other people looking for work who would be happy to take my job if I don't do it well. Even if I had Huguenot ancestry, the question shouldn't be what my life experience is, but whether what I say has an credibility. I notice you've chosen not to engage with any of my arguments, just said I've failed to recognise the impact of immigration. Presumably you have no issue with Nigel Farage having a view on immigration? Born in Sevenoaks, educated at Dulwich College and a city trader, I daresay he doesn't have that much life experience of immigration by your standards. Since Wednesday, I've been busy at work (you got a job yet?) and mainly doing other stuff in the evenings. I don't get major kicks from crafting out message board posts as some. Where do you live? You clearly are unaware of towns such as Boston who have been invaded by Poles - the type I was referring to - nor do you care. And it IS about life experience and you have bugger all. How can you judge credibility without such. Farage has more than you and doesn't have the blinkers because he sees that is an issue in many parts of the country. You failed to see that is the case at all. Even your party Labour admitted they got it wrong on immigration but you refuse to accept it. Edited by Penge Eagle (16 May 2014 11.06pm)
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Kermit8  Hevon 16 May 14 11.08pm |
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Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 10.57pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 16 May 2014 10.15pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.09pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.08pm
Having free movement of goods and services, but restricting movement of people is trying to buck he market. You can't have it both ways. Having control of who comes to live and work in this country certainly should be a function of our government. It is not bucking the market, it is choosing which immigrants we want to satisfy our market requirements and rejecting the rest. Yes, there should be free movement of goods and services – if goods are produced that people want at a price they are prepared to pay, then fine. In terms of the Euro, they moved too quickly, before having greater genuine convergence and, most importantly, much more rigorous, independent checks on all the economies before they joined so that they came in at a credible exchange level. But the reality is that it has still survived the biggest economic crisis in living memory and is intact. Imposing (or as you say ‘converging’) a single currency on such divers economies was always doomed to failure. ‘Survived’? Staggering around the ring like a drunken boxer more like. I don't imagine I will manage to persuade you, but living in Euroland is not the Dante's inferno you believe or wish it to be. I don’t imagine you will either, but why would I wish it to be Dante’s Inferno? The problems in most of the Eurozone countries which have needed support was that they were inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt (or at 2 of the 4 in some cases). The tensions within the Eurozone have exposed them much more effectively than had they been outside and simply devalued their currencies until they were worthless. It is the EU that is more inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt than the countries suffering under its yoke. The consequence is that many have had to take a very painful dose of economic reality which, in the long term, is good for us all as potential trading partners. Yes, economic reality does have a habit of imposing itself.
I agree if you are just going to resort to abuse.
Big chest and massive boobs |
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| Kermit8 Hevon 16 May 14 11.10pm |
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Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
Quote The White Horse at 16 May 2014 10.35pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 10.03pm
One day, this might impact your life but you are only just out of uni and come from a privileged background. The ad hominem stuff didn't really work out for you on Wednesday, why are you having another crack at it? Aren't people who "live in market towns" the experts with lived experience of immigration? By your rules, doesn't my view trump yours now by virtue of my living in one? Whatever my background, I've been in and out of work for over a decade in various low paid jobs, so I'm not completely oblivious to the fact that there are other people looking for work who would be happy to take my job if I don't do it well. Even if I had Huguenot ancestry, the question shouldn't be what my life experience is, but whether what I say has an credibility. I notice you've chosen not to engage with any of my arguments, just said I've failed to recognise the impact of immigration. Presumably you have no issue with Nigel Farage having a view on immigration? Born in Sevenoaks, educated at Dulwich College and a city trader, I daresay he doesn't have that much life experience of immigration by your standards. Since Wednesday, I've been busy at work (you got a job yet?) and mainly doing other stuff in the evenings. I don't get major kicks from crafting out message board posts as some. Where do you live? You clearly are unaware of towns such as Boston who have been invaded by Poles - the type I was referring to - nor do you care. And it IS about life experience and you have bugger all. How can you judge credibility without such. Farage has more than you and doesn't have the blinkers because he sees that is an issue in many parts of the country. You failed to see that is the case at all. Even your party Labour admitted they got it wrong on immigration but you refuse to accept it. Edited by Penge Eagle (16 May 2014 11.06pm) Do you care about Boston? Really?
Big chest and massive boobs |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 16 May 14 11.17pm |
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Quote Kermit8 at 16 May 2014 11.10pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
Quote The White Horse at 16 May 2014 10.35pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 10.03pm
One day, this might impact your life but you are only just out of uni and come from a privileged background. The ad hominem stuff didn't really work out for you on Wednesday, why are you having another crack at it? Aren't people who "live in market towns" the experts with lived experience of immigration? By your rules, doesn't my view trump yours now by virtue of my living in one? Whatever my background, I've been in and out of work for over a decade in various low paid jobs, so I'm not completely oblivious to the fact that there are other people looking for work who would be happy to take my job if I don't do it well. Even if I had Huguenot ancestry, the question shouldn't be what my life experience is, but whether what I say has an credibility. I notice you've chosen not to engage with any of my arguments, just said I've failed to recognise the impact of immigration. Presumably you have no issue with Nigel Farage having a view on immigration? Born in Sevenoaks, educated at Dulwich College and a city trader, I daresay he doesn't have that much life experience of immigration by your standards. Since Wednesday, I've been busy at work (you got a job yet?) and mainly doing other stuff in the evenings. I don't get major kicks from crafting out message board posts as some. Where do you live? You clearly are unaware of towns such as Boston who have been invaded by Poles - the type I was referring to - nor do you care. And it IS about life experience and you have bugger all. How can you judge credibility without such. Farage has more than you and doesn't have the blinkers because he sees that is an issue in many parts of the country. You failed to see that is the case at all. Even your party Labour admitted they got it wrong on immigration but you refuse to accept it. Edited by Penge Eagle (16 May 2014 11.06pm) Do you care about Boston? Really?
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| kangel 16 May 14 11.17pm |
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Quote Kermit8 at 16 May 2014 11.08pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 10.57pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 16 May 2014 10.15pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.09pm
Quote kangel at 16 May 2014 8.08pm
Having free movement of goods and services, but restricting movement of people is trying to buck he market. You can't have it both ways. Having control of who comes to live and work in this country certainly should be a function of our government. It is not bucking the market, it is choosing which immigrants we want to satisfy our market requirements and rejecting the rest. Yes, there should be free movement of goods and services – if goods are produced that people want at a price they are prepared to pay, then fine. In terms of the Euro, they moved too quickly, before having greater genuine convergence and, most importantly, much more rigorous, independent checks on all the economies before they joined so that they came in at a credible exchange level. But the reality is that it has still survived the biggest economic crisis in living memory and is intact. Imposing (or as you say ‘converging’) a single currency on such divers economies was always doomed to failure. ‘Survived’? Staggering around the ring like a drunken boxer more like. I don't imagine I will manage to persuade you, but living in Euroland is not the Dante's inferno you believe or wish it to be. I don’t imagine you will either, but why would I wish it to be Dante’s Inferno? The problems in most of the Eurozone countries which have needed support was that they were inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt (or at 2 of the 4 in some cases). The tensions within the Eurozone have exposed them much more effectively than had they been outside and simply devalued their currencies until they were worthless. It is the EU that is more inefficient, overpaid, underworked and corrupt than the countries suffering under its yoke. The consequence is that many have had to take a very painful dose of economic reality which, in the long term, is good for us all as potential trading partners. Yes, economic reality does have a habit of imposing itself.
I agree if you are just going to resort to abuse.
In your opinion.
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 16 May 14 11.34pm |
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Quote DanH at 16 May 2014 4.07pm
Farage getting ripped apart on LBC this morning here. What an aggressive interviewer, ha!
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 16 May 14 11.36pm |
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Quote Kermit8 at 16 May 2014 11.10pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
Quote The White Horse at 16 May 2014 10.35pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 10.03pm
One day, this might impact your life but you are only just out of uni and come from a privileged background. The ad hominem stuff didn't really work out for you on Wednesday, why are you having another crack at it? Aren't people who "live in market towns" the experts with lived experience of immigration? By your rules, doesn't my view trump yours now by virtue of my living in one? Whatever my background, I've been in and out of work for over a decade in various low paid jobs, so I'm not completely oblivious to the fact that there are other people looking for work who would be happy to take my job if I don't do it well. Even if I had Huguenot ancestry, the question shouldn't be what my life experience is, but whether what I say has an credibility. I notice you've chosen not to engage with any of my arguments, just said I've failed to recognise the impact of immigration. Presumably you have no issue with Nigel Farage having a view on immigration? Born in Sevenoaks, educated at Dulwich College and a city trader, I daresay he doesn't have that much life experience of immigration by your standards. Since Wednesday, I've been busy at work (you got a job yet?) and mainly doing other stuff in the evenings. I don't get major kicks from crafting out message board posts as some. Where do you live? You clearly are unaware of towns such as Boston who have been invaded by Poles - the type I was referring to - nor do you care. And it IS about life experience and you have bugger all. How can you judge credibility without such. Farage has more than you and doesn't have the blinkers because he sees that is an issue in many parts of the country. You failed to see that is the case at all. Even your party Labour admitted they got it wrong on immigration but you refuse to accept it. Edited by Penge Eagle (16 May 2014 11.06pm) Do you care about Boston? Really? Is that the best you can respond with Kermit? Edited by Penge Eagle (16 May 2014 11.36pm)
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 16 May 14 11.43pm |
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Even the Left want out of Europe, with the likes of the No2EU party campaigning to get out. I find it strange how Lefties on here don't seem to agree.
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| The White Horse 16 May 14 11.50pm |
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Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
Since Wednesday, I've been busy at work (you got a job yet?) and mainly doing other stuff in the evenings. I don't get major kicks from crafting out message board posts as some. Another pointless personal jibe. Aren't these sorts of posts largely what make a lot of "debates" on here completely unreadable? I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but can we not attempt to exclusively discuss UKIP? Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
Where do you live? You clearly are unaware of towns such as Boston who have been invaded by Poles - the type I was referring to - nor do you care. Given the nature of this debate, I'd rather not feed you with further personal information so that we can discuss how legitimate my experience is rather than the actual topic of discussion. If you're happy to provide a list of market towns where residents can't hold a credible view on immigration, I'd be interested to see it. Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
And it IS about life experience and you have bugger all. How can you judge credibility without such. You outlined the life experience requirement as "living in a market town" and I met it. To now claim that is of no relevance is moving the goalposts in the most blatant sense, surely?! Also, I think it's quite obvious that you hold opinions on subjects that haven't directly affected you. Presumably you have a view on asylum seekers, abortion, policing and so on. If you're going to insist on life experience being present for someone to have a credible opinion in a discussion, you're going to end up having fairly brief debates that you (and the other participants) will have to frequently excuse yourselves from. Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.04pm
Farage has more than you and doesn't have the blinkers because he sees that is an issue in many parts of the country. You failed to see that is the case at all. Even your party Labour admitted they got it wrong on immigration but you refuse to accept it. So which market town has Nigel Farage lived in? I fail to see what lived experience he has of immigration. You mentioned privilege earlier, I think it's quite obvious Farage has had it pretty easy. Obviously I disagree with the Labour party, who at the end of the day are just trying to represent their supporters who tell them that they have concerns about immigration. Nobody's denying immigration isn't a big issue; I believe only the economy is seen as more important. I would humbly suggest that you're judging people's life experience on the basis of whether they agree with you, rather than judging whether people have life experience before you decide whether they are credible, as you seem to be suggesting.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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| The White Horse 16 May 14 11.52pm |
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Quote Penge Eagle at 16 May 2014 11.43pm
Even the Left want out of Europe, with the likes of the No2EU party campaigning to get out. I find it strange how Lefties on here don't seem to agree. The far left want out just as the far right do, because it's essentially a centrist organisation. A fascinating political issue, the EU, because it demonstrates the "horse shoe" nature of political ideology quite nicely.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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