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Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 11 Dec 23 9.50am | |
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Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak within the limitations imposed upon you by those with power. It is therefore oxymoronic and something I've long held umbrage with. The likes of Alex Jones fall victim where a populous is so devastatingly idiotic, considerable portions of it are likely to be encouraged to action by whatever they hear, or even that they may disastrously misinterpret. As opposed to tackling anything dangerous or just downright nuts, it is perhaps safer and far more effective to nullify the source so as to prevent or mitigate anarchy and worse. The issue with the above comes where the determination of what is necessary to be nullified falls to a small faction of a society, in this case politicians. The downright ludicrous and easily debunked stance that these people act purely in the interest of the society they serve is not only ignorant of the human condition but completely laughable. As things stand, the socio-political landscape means that there probably are numerous things where their promulgation does need to be nullified, such as that which incites terrorist activity or threatens the safety of the populous. The issue remains however that equally, anything that is deemed to threaten the law makers or powers that be can be incorporated into this bracket to serve their interests, with the right narrative behind it. This therefore means that the justification of, and mechanisms for nullifying the dangerous can be utilised to nullify political opposition. They get to decide that which constitutes a danger and providing ambiguous categorisations such as 'hate speech', WTF does that really mean anyway, allow them to do this. This also allows them to 'green light' anything that may equally pose a danger to the population, but again, serves their interests. That's why today we have those with any grievance against the likes of immigration, the promotion of the alphabet soup, the mutilation of children, the Orwellian state etc being branded as 'far-right', nomenclature the powers that be know will cast a black mark upon such entities and thus a narrative that will justify their suppression within what can perhaps more easily be described as a 'far-left' socio-political landscape. We never hear that though, do we?
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 11 Dec 23 9.53am | |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
Street preachers have been arrested, a woman was arrested for silently praying. "The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it." [Orwell] No she wasn’t. She was arrested for deliberately breaking a very restricted exclusion order which was issued to protect the rights of others. It was done only after many warnings and followed several similar instances. She was not arrested for silently praying. She could do that anywhere where there were no restrictions.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Teddy Eagle 11 Dec 23 9.59am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Let me be very clear. I don’t support “significant restrictions on speech I don’t agree with”. Such speech I want to see defeated by better speech. I don’t want to see this argument banned. I want it defeated by a better argument. What I accept and understand is that an absolute right to free speech is a myth. Not because of any views of mine but because of the views of us. We have decided, because of the need for a functioning society, to restrict the expression of certain things in certain places. Libel, slander and hate speech being examples. Bringing in “the Biden administration “ into this argument, alongside every other is nonsensical. They will be cited as the reason we have lost 4 times on the bounce at home next! Mocking and criticising the powerful is perfectly ok. Indeed it is important to do so. Just so long as it doesn’t slander, libel, incite or otherwise break the law. Freedoms only exist under the law. Nothing is above it. Claiming not to understand the reference to Orban is either disingenuous or ill informed. Take your pick. Journalists and others have suffered in many ways. Ukraine wasn’t mentioned because Ukraine hasn’t been defended. I have no idea how many people have been arrested for online comments in Britain, but it cannot be many as I cannot recall a report. Nor how many in Russia but I suspect that’s either because such information is suppressed by the state controlled media or that transgressors receive rather more severe punishment. Of course I supported the arrest of a woman who deliberately disobeyed a limited restriction order in order to gain publicity for a cause. Much like I support the arrest of Yaxley-Lennon for doing exactly the same thing. Such orders are issued reluctantly and only when the rights of others are under threat. So forgive me for regarding his comments as hypocritical nonsense. Freedom of speech is alive and well. Provided it remains lawful. Laws being things that we decide as a society and, once decided, apply to us all. Why the constant need to refer to "Yaxley-Lennon"? The same convention didn't apply to Mary O'Leary or indeed Dazet Zaha.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 11 Dec 23 10.11am | |
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak within the limitations imposed upon you by those with power. It is therefore oxymoronic and something I've long held umbrage with. The likes of Alex Jones fall victim where a populous is so devastatingly idiotic, considerable portions of it are likely to be encouraged to action by whatever they hear, or even that they may disastrously misinterpret. As opposed to tackling anything dangerous or just downright nuts, it is perhaps safer and far more effective to nullify the source so as to prevent or mitigate anarchy and worse. The issue with the above comes where the determination of what is necessary to be nullified falls to a small faction of a society, in this case politicians. The downright ludicrous and easily debunked stance that these people act purely in the interest of the society they serve is not only ignorant of the human condition but completely laughable. As things stand, the socio-political landscape means that there probably are numerous things where their promulgation does need to be nullified, such as that which incites terrorist activity or threatens the safety of the populous. The issue remains however that equally, anything that is deemed to threaten the law makers or powers that be can be incorporated into this bracket to serve their interests, with the right narrative behind it. This therefore means that the justification of, and mechanisms for nullifying the dangerous can be utilised to nullify political opposition. They get to decide that which constitutes a danger and providing ambiguous categorisations such as 'hate speech', WTF does that really mean anyway, allow them to do this. This also allows them to 'green light' anything that may equally pose a danger to the population, but again, serves their interests. That's why today we have those with any grievance against the likes of immigration, the promotion of the alphabet soup, the mutilation of children, the Orwellian state etc being branded as 'far-right', nomenclature the powers that be know will cast a black mark upon such entities and thus a narrative that will justify their suppression within what can perhaps more easily be described as a 'far-left' socio-political landscape. We never hear that though, do we? That though is democracy. If enough vote for change then change will happen. I don’t see politicians acting to protect themselves. If they did I would expect a media outcry to quickly stop it. I am glad though that you acknowledge the need for some reasonable and necessary restrictions, when they are clearly in the public interest. Whatever people brand you is irrelevant. I have been branded many things here, but I just ignore them. People are entitled to their opinions and to express them freely. I am unaware of anyone’s freedom of speech being threatened over that, whether they are from the right or the left. All that’s needed is a tough skin and nothing will touch you. It’s different if you are part of a previously marginalised or excluded group for which direct intervention is currently considered necessary. You can freely argue against that intervention but whilst it exists you are obliged to respect it.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 11 Dec 23 10.25am | |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
Why the constant need to refer to "Yaxley-Lennon"? The same convention didn't apply to Mary O'Leary or indeed Dazet Zaha. It’s not just his first name he has tried to change. It’s his whole identity. Steven Christopher Yaxley-Lennon has a different ring about it to Tommy Robinson. The latter being the actual name of the leader of a football hooligan gang. The former sounding more like an Eton schoolboy. I think he is a thoroughly nasty piece of work who is also a hypocrite. So I will call him by his real name, unless and until it changes. Just as the courts do. My free choice.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 11 Dec 23 10.39am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
That though is democracy. If enough vote for change then change will happen. I don’t see politicians acting to protect themselves. If they did I would expect a media outcry to quickly stop it. I am glad though that you acknowledge the need for some reasonable and necessary restrictions, when they are clearly in the public interest. Whatever people brand you is irrelevant. I have been branded many things here, but I just ignore them. People are entitled to their opinions and to express them freely. I am unaware of anyone’s freedom of speech being threatened over that, whether they are from the right or the left. All that’s needed is a tough skin and nothing will touch you. It’s different if you are part of a previously marginalised or excluded group for which direct intervention is currently considered necessary. You can freely argue against that intervention but whilst it exists you are obliged to respect it. That (bold) really is just insane Wisbech, think before you type. Of course it is democracy however, or rather democracy as we can best or are implementing it I might add, so acknowledge that there. I'd strongly argue media and propaganda work well to socially condition people these days, with the choice and repetitive election of either red or blue, both comprising of the same cohort of people, reducing democracy to size of a mouse's hand these days. Same within the US. You may want to rethink your stance on 'branding' people however. That's a rather large component of the argument around 'freedom of speech' these days. If you want to look at how 'branding' and boxing off sections of society might work, look to the all too frequently cited example of 1930's Germany. That didn't end well. I could also rattle off a number of colloquial slang words often used in reference to groups within society, but they're all banned now too... by those who have the power to determine which branding is acceptable and which is not. My point in the first instance.
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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Teddy Eagle 11 Dec 23 10.52am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
It’s not just his first name he has tried to change. It’s his whole identity. Steven Christopher Yaxley-Lennon has a different ring about it to Tommy Robinson. The latter being the actual name of the leader of a football hooligan gang. The former sounding more like an Eton schoolboy. I think he is a thoroughly nasty piece of work who is also a hypocrite. So I will call him by his real name, unless and until it changes. Just as the courts do. My free choice. Better not do the same with any trans people of whom you don't approve or you'll be arrested.
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Badger11 Beckenham 11 Dec 23 2.03pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
It’s not just his first name he has tried to change. It’s his whole identity. Steven Christopher Yaxley-Lennon has a different ring about it to Tommy Robinson. The latter being the actual name of the leader of a football hooligan gang. The former sounding more like an Eton schoolboy. I think he is a thoroughly nasty piece of work who is also a hypocrite. So I will call him by his real name, unless and until it changes. Just as the courts do. My free choice. No fan of TR but if he wants to be known by that... I believe Cassius Clay didn't like his birth name either and wasn't too happy with people who continued to refer to him as that. Edited by Badger11 (11 Dec 2023 2.03pm)
One more point |
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georgenorman 11 Dec 23 5.42pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
No she wasn’t. She was arrested for deliberately breaking a very restricted exclusion order which was issued to protect the rights of others. It was done only after many warnings and followed several similar instances. She was not arrested for silently praying. She could do that anywhere where there were no restrictions. She was not banned from the area, she was banned from protesting. She stood silently praying. She was not arrested until she was asked by the police if she was silently praying and replied that she probably was. She was arrested for silently praying.
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georgenorman 11 Dec 23 5.45pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
It’s not just his first name he has tried to change. It’s his whole identity. Steven Christopher Yaxley-Lennon has a different ring about it to Tommy Robinson. The latter being the actual name of the leader of a football hooligan gang. The former sounding more like an Eton schoolboy. I think he is a thoroughly nasty piece of work who is also a hypocrite. So I will call him by his real name, unless and until it changes. Just as the courts do. My free choice. Double-barrelled names used to denote that you were probably posh. Nowadays it often just means that you were born out of wedlock.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 11 Dec 23 8.29pm | |
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
That (bold) really is just insane Wisbech, think before you type. Of course it is democracy however, or rather democracy as we can best or are implementing it I might add, so acknowledge that there. I'd strongly argue media and propaganda work well to socially condition people these days, with the choice and repetitive election of either red or blue, both comprising of the same cohort of people, reducing democracy to size of a mouse's hand these days. Same within the US. You may want to rethink your stance on 'branding' people however. That's a rather large component of the argument around 'freedom of speech' these days. If you want to look at how 'branding' and boxing off sections of society might work, look to the all too frequently cited example of 1930's Germany. That didn't end well. I could also rattle off a number of colloquial slang words often used in reference to groups within society, but they're all banned now too... by those who have the power to determine which branding is acceptable and which is not. My point in the first instance. In the context of the assertion that politicians are manipulating laws to disadvantage their opponents my response isn’t insane. It’s true. I don’t see it from them. am not that cynical and believe our system would root anything like that out. Nor is a rethink needed on being branded by others. Just ignore it and stay true to yourself and your principles. I don’t care what others, who don’t either know me or who haven’t earned my respect in some way, think of me.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 11 Dec 23 8.31pm | |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
Better not do the same with any trans people of whom you don't approve or you'll be arrested. No danger there. I neither approve nor disapprove. It’s not my business to.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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