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jamiemartin721 Reading 30 Aug 17 5.02pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I listened to a 'league of nerds' interview with the guy who wrote 'perfect soldiers', one of the few books actually written about the 911 hijackers. It's a fascinating interview for those interested. I think a requirement for real barbarism to happen...lets for the sake of ease call it 'evil'. I think for that to happen there has to be a disconnect between the individual and their actions. The reality is that many 'evil' people are banal in their normality. On a small level this 'disconnect' can be seen in the difference say between how someone might communicate on the web as opposed to how they might in person. On a larger level professional armies know just how hard it is to change the mindset of a civilian into someone who will take part in a real bayonet charge.....against essentially strangers on a different team from them. An up close association between the individual and savagery requires disconnect and motivation. The disconnect between what a bomber pilot does as a job and what their actions produce is another example. This is not me making judgements upon say allied bombing pilots on German city runs. That's a whole thread on its own. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Aug 2017 4.51pm) This is very true. Professional armies spend a lot of time and training, not in producing someone who will so much kill strangers, but more someone who will defend those around them and themselves. A professional solider might be trained to kill, but they are not trained to kill indiscriminately, or to be cruel or callous. Some do cross that line, but its surprisingly few - and often when you get major issues such as Abu Garab - the problem lies in the way that the structure of the military has embraced a callous disregard that creates an environment that permits such horror. When it comes to terrorism, that tends to be missing. Terrorists don't really act within that important limitation. Terrorism often embraces a 'By Any Means' rather than a 'by any means necessary' approach. The military don't take lives lightly. The danger of recent developments in the political command such as embracing callous, cruel or indiscriminate killing, with minimal justification is dangerous because it can lead to a steady corruption through the military that affects its discipline. And if there is one thing that a trained professional solider has that a militia or terrorist doesn't, its that professional discipline.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 30 Aug 17 5.03pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Surely, modern human society is based on nationalism. It's not going away any time soon. Well its based on different ideas of nationalism, including the rejection of nationalism. The problem tends to be when people use nationalism as a means of justifying something, that otherwise would be abhorrent, immoral or illegal.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Aug 17 5.04pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Who the f**k is still going to the cinema to see 'Gone with the Wind'. Also, its a private company, its within its full legal rights to decide what films it shows, and why. Maybe next week they'll be showing that new blockbuster movie Citizen Kane.
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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Aug 17 5.09pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Well its based on different ideas of nationalism, including the rejection of nationalism. The problem tends to be when people use nationalism as a means of justifying something, that otherwise would be abhorrent, immoral or illegal. People will use virtually anything to justify their actions. Nationalism is not really special in that respect. It is a mechanism to galvanise, rally or manipulate populations but generally, it is a symptom of our territorial nature.
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Stirlingsays 30 Aug 17 5.17pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Well in line with National Socialist Party of Germany I also support the concepts of prioritising the working classes, a primacy towards citizens over non-citizens in terms of employment and rights, nationalisation of key utilities and assets, unionisation and also things like universal health care, free education etc. I don't know enough about nationalization as a concept that can work effectively to judge it even even-handedly....Though I do know that if an individual doesn't own something or have a stake in it that they frequently will misuse and abuse that which is given to them freely. However, the idea that conservatives were against nationalisation is a relatively recent thing...I remember Macmillan and his 'family silver'. However, I know it isn't affordable as a pragmatic solution currently. However, on these other matters I think this is where I find myself. Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Nazism and Fascism were, like Communism and socialism, based in anti-capitalism. As a result the left share a lot of common concepts with National Socialism (albeit with very different approaches to these). Nationalism isn't just a far right thing, I've known left wing nationalists, as well as liberal and right wing nationalists. Yep, you can be a nationalist and very liberal - The perspective of the ideals of a nation vary according to individual views of nationhood. Nationalism shouldn't be a dirty word, just because of some people. Totally agree, nationalism is a concept like any other and as such it has its benign extent all the way through to its extremes. I think the kind of nationalism that believes that all human life is born equal of worth, independent of abilities or who you are born too....I think once that concept is accepted then nationalism is about building a better society based upon values and culture but also pragmatic solutions that work....ie competition, innovation...rewards for striving and so on....I suppose it's all about the extent.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Stirlingsays 30 Aug 17 5.21pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
People will use virtually anything to justify their actions. Nationalism is not really special in that respect. It is a mechanism to galvanise, rally or manipulate populations but generally, it is a symptom of our territorial nature. Yep I agree, it's a way of rallying people together under something they can all agree on.....Humans have individualism....which is a good thing...but like every trait taken too far it can become a negative. There needs to be some collective element too.....It's a balance.....outside of war-times one that should be slightly weighted towards individualism.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Stirlingsays 30 Aug 17 5.34pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
This is very true. Professional armies spend a lot of time and training, not in producing someone who will so much kill strangers, but more someone who will defend those around them and themselves. A professional solider might be trained to kill, but they are not trained to kill indiscriminately, or to be cruel or callous. Some do cross that line, but its surprisingly few - and often when you get major issues such as Abu Garab - the problem lies in the way that the structure of the military has embraced a callous disregard that creates an environment that permits such horror. When it comes to terrorism, that tends to be missing. Terrorists don't really act within that important limitation. Terrorism often embraces a 'By Any Means' rather than a 'by any means necessary' approach. The military don't take lives lightly. The danger of recent developments in the political command such as embracing callous, cruel or indiscriminate killing, with minimal justification is dangerous because it can lead to a steady corruption through the military that affects its discipline. And if there is one thing that a trained professional solider has that a militia or terrorist doesn't, its that professional discipline. Yep, professional soldiers in the battlefield are of course exposed to barbarism and the stress of imminent death. The longer that goes on the more likely that its affects will be harder to deal with...which I suppose is why they rotate troops regularly. 'If you stare into the abyss' is what comes to mind and hence, along with the training and the culture, how professional the command structures are within forces is an intrinsic difference in how ethical they end up behaving. But as with all human systems you will have bad apples or/and people who break. The business of killing people as a norm isn't healthy long term for an inherently social animal like us.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Kermit8 Hevon 30 Aug 17 11.37pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
WARNING Please do not imply that people are neo-nazis or fascists, because they may share one or two views with them. Neo-Nazism also shares a lot of similarities among the left as well as right, and mainstream as its utilises popularism.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 31 Aug 17 10.16am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Yep I agree, it's a way of rallying people together under something they can all agree on.....Humans have individualism....which is a good thing...but like every trait taken too far it can become a negative. There needs to be some collective element too.....It's a balance.....outside of war-times one that should be slightly weighted towards individualism.
Thing with nationalism, is that its an easy one, like religion is, to rally people to, because its a vaguely definable concept, but one that a lot of people share - that by definition can be used to excuse criticism and exclude valid assessement (basically its an poorly defined ideology). And one abused by most totalitarian states in history. Even the Communists played to National Identity and Nationalism to validate terrible crimes. There isn't anything wrong with being a nationalist, if you can accept that nationalism isn't a truth in its own right, and that there is nothing inherently wrong with criticism of national ideals. Its kind of a bit like how political correctness is becoming a measure to shut people up, rather than to stimulate discussion.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 31 Aug 17 10.23am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
No one should be, the issues in particular should really be more embarrassing to white members of the audience - that it was acceptable and reasonable to portray black people that way. Its no Birth of a Nation.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 31 Aug 17 10.51am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
No one should be, the issues in particular should really be more embarrassing to white members of the audience - that it was acceptable and reasonable to portray black people that way. Its no Birth of a Nation. The film is a period piece and depicts those times. It's accuracy as far as individual portrayals are like any other film of its type and era. Probably a bit melodramatic and stereotyped. It was made 80 years ago by people of the time and that is all we need to know.
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 31 Aug 17 12.18pm | |
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Nice. Attachment: IMG_20170831_121802.jpg (59.63Kb)
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