CONservative government incompetence.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 20 May 23 9.18am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I don't think so. They are utterly bonkers. Many know we need a third party with the backing to challenge in a meaningful way. The system makes that as hard as possible to accomplish for obvious reasons. The Tories have been very unlucky with COVID, and the fallout from the war, but their inability to remain united for the greater good is shocking. They have gone from unassailable under Boris to likely losers, and they only have themselves to blame. The opposition is a joke. I agree, although I doubt that we will over what the political position of that party needs to be. I suspect you believe it needs to be Reform, or something even further to the right. I believe it needs to be firmly in the centre and distancing itself from extreme views, both left and right, for that's where most people feel comfortable. You would hate it, as it would support many of the things people like you detest in modern Britain. So I think what is more likely is that both will happen. People like you feel unrepresented, and that's not right. Your voice needs to be heard and your arguments defeated by better ones, where it matters. Which isn't here, but in Parliament. Both the Tories, and Labour, need to decide what side they are on. The Tories could go right and shrink to become a minority party, or dump the right and grow again. Labour have already dumped the left and are rapidly moving to the centre. I don't see them going left again in my lifetime. The last failure won't be easily forgotten and Blair will be held up as a hero to the younger generations. I think we will see a future of PR and successive coalitions of broadly centre parties, very occasionally including the Reform type. Of course, there is the huge obstacle of the present system standing in the way and the need for Turkeys to vote for Christmas. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 20 May 23 9.18am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I don't think so. They are utterly bonkers.

Many know we need a third party with the backing to challenge in a meaningful way. The system makes that as hard as possible to accomplish for obvious reasons.

The Tories have been very unlucky with COVID, and the fallout from the war, but their inability to remain united for the greater good is shocking.
They have gone from unassailable under Boris to likely losers, and they only have themselves to blame.

The opposition is a joke.

I agree, although I doubt that we will over what the political position of that party needs to be.

I suspect you believe it needs to be Reform, or something even further to the right.

I believe it needs to be firmly in the centre and distancing itself from extreme views, both left and right, for that's where most people feel comfortable. You would hate it, as it would support many of the things people like you detest in modern Britain.

So I think what is more likely is that both will happen. People like you feel unrepresented, and that's not right. Your voice needs to be heard and your arguments defeated by better ones, where it matters. Which isn't here, but in Parliament.

Both the Tories, and Labour, need to decide what side they are on. The Tories could go right and shrink to become a minority party, or dump the right and grow again. Labour have already dumped the left and are rapidly moving to the centre. I don't see them going left again in my lifetime. The last failure won't be easily forgotten and Blair will be held up as a hero to the younger generations.

I think we will see a future of PR and successive coalitions of broadly centre parties, very occasionally including the Reform type.

Of course, there is the huge obstacle of the present system standing in the way and the need for Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Hrolf The Ganger 20 May 23 6.02pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I agree, although I doubt that we will over what the political position of that party needs to be. I suspect you believe it needs to be Reform, or something even further to the right. I believe it needs to be firmly in the centre and distancing itself from extreme views, both left and right, for that's where most people feel comfortable. You would hate it, as it would support many of the things people like you detest in modern Britain. So I think what is more likely is that both will happen. People like you feel unrepresented, and that's not right. Your voice needs to be heard and your arguments defeated by better ones, where it matters. Which isn't here, but in Parliament. Both the Tories, and Labour, need to decide what side they are on. The Tories could go right and shrink to become a minority party, or dump the right and grow again. Labour have already dumped the left and are rapidly moving to the centre. I don't see them going left again in my lifetime. The last failure won't be easily forgotten and Blair will be held up as a hero to the younger generations. I think we will see a future of PR and successive coalitions of broadly centre parties, very occasionally including the Reform type. Of course, there is the huge obstacle of the present system standing in the way and the need for Turkeys to vote for Christmas. I am further to the right than you, but that does not mean that I am far to the right. PP would be a disaster for this country.It is a recipe for stagnation.
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Hrolf The Ganger

20 May 23 6.02pm

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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I agree, although I doubt that we will over what the political position of that party needs to be.

I suspect you believe it needs to be Reform, or something even further to the right.

I believe it needs to be firmly in the centre and distancing itself from extreme views, both left and right, for that's where most people feel comfortable. You would hate it, as it would support many of the things people like you detest in modern Britain.

I think we will see a future of PR and successive coalitions of broadly centre parties, very occasionally including the Reform type.

Of course, there is the huge obstacle of the present system standing in the way and the need for Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

I am further to the right than you, but that does not mean that I am far to the right.

PP would be a disaster for this country.It is a recipe for stagnation.

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cryrst The garden of England 20 May 23 6.42pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I agree, although I doubt that we will over what the political position of that party needs to be. I suspect you believe it needs to be Reform, or something even further to the right. I believe it needs to be firmly in the centre and distancing itself from extreme views, both left and right, for that's where most people feel comfortable. You would hate it, as it would support many of the things people like you detest in modern Britain. So I think what is more likely is that both will happen. People like you feel unrepresented, and that's not right. Your voice needs to be heard and your arguments defeated by better ones, where it matters. Which isn't here, but in Parliament. Both the Tories, and Labour, need to decide what side they are on. The Tories could go right and shrink to become a minority party, or dump the right and grow again. Labour have already dumped the left and are rapidly moving to the centre. I don't see them going left again in my lifetime. The last failure won't be easily forgotten and Blair will be held up as a hero to the younger generations. I think we will see a future of PR and successive coalitions of broadly centre parties, very occasionally including the Reform type. Of course, there is the huge obstacle of the present system standing in the way and the need for Turkeys to vote for Christmas. Why do his arguments which are probably more popular than you would like, need defeating. Just maybe he has a decent argument that can be agreed with and acted on. You state he is correct to feel un represented and that is wrong, then completely try to obliterate the reasons why! Who are ‘people like you’ exactly ?
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cryrst

The garden of England 20 May 23 6.42pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I agree, although I doubt that we will over what the political position of that party needs to be.

I suspect you believe it needs to be Reform, or something even further to the right.

I think we will see a future of PR and successive coalitions of broadly centre parties, very occasionally including the Reform type.

Of course, there is the huge obstacle of the present system standing in the way and the need for Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

Why do his arguments which are probably more popular than you would like, need defeating. Just maybe he has a decent argument that can be agreed with and acted on. You state he is correct to feel un represented and that is wrong, then completely try to obliterate the reasons why! Who are ‘people like you’ exactly ?

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 20 May 23 9.10pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I am further to the right than you, but that does not mean that I am far to the right. PP would be a disaster for this country.It is a recipe for stagnation. I don't. I think PP is a recipe for stability and avoiding the constant undoing of what the last lot did, before doing something that they will undo. We need to get ourselves onto a firm, steady course without major diversions left or right. It might make politics more boring and predictable but getting somewhere has to be better than going round in circles. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 20 May 23 9.10pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I am further to the right than you, but that does not mean that I am far to the right.

PP would be a disaster for this country.It is a recipe for stagnation.

I don't. I think PP is a recipe for stability and avoiding the constant undoing of what the last lot did, before doing something that they will undo.

We need to get ourselves onto a firm, steady course without major diversions left or right. It might make politics more boring and predictable but getting somewhere has to be better than going round in circles.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 20 May 23 9.17pm
Originally posted by cryrst Why do his arguments which are probably more popular than you would like, need defeating. Just maybe he has a decent argument that can be agreed with and acted on. You state he is correct to feel un represented and that is wrong, then completely try to obliterate the reasons why! Who are ‘people like you’ exactly ? I don't believe they are popular but they obviously exist and need to be heard. If there is a decent argument which can work then let's hear it, debate it and if a consensus is reached go for it. No problem with that. Those that don't get defeated. By "people like you" there's no need to look any further than those who make everything about immigration and believe in the "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 20 May 23 9.17pm

Originally posted by cryrst

I don't believe they are popular but they obviously exist and need to be heard. If there is a decent argument which can work then let's hear it, debate it and if a consensus is reached go for it. No problem with that. Those that don't get defeated.

By "people like you" there's no need to look any further than those who make everything about immigration and believe in the "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Hrolf The Ganger 20 May 23 9.20pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I don't. I think PP is a recipe for stability and avoiding the constant undoing of what the last lot did, before doing something that they will undo. We need to get ourselves onto a firm, steady course without major diversions left or right. It might make politics more boring and predictable but getting somewhere has to be better than going round in circles. I meant PR of course. The problem is that Labour and the Liberals will only introduce it for their own political ends.That is very bad for democracy. The mechanics are bound to create inertia in policy making.
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Hrolf The Ganger

20 May 23 9.20pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I don't. I think PP is a recipe for stability and avoiding the constant undoing of what the last lot did, before doing something that they will undo.

I meant PR of course.

The problem is that Labour and the Liberals will only introduce it for their own political ends.That is very bad for democracy.

The mechanics are bound to create inertia in policy making.

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cryrst The garden of England 20 May 23 9.38pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I don't believe they are popular but they obviously exist and need to be heard. If there is a decent argument which can work then let's hear it, debate it and if a consensus is reached go for it. No problem with that. Those that don't get defeated. By "people like you" there's no need to look any further than those who make everything about immigration and believe in the "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory. In an earlier post I asked if you had a thought that may be negative about immigration. If you don’t in even the smallest way, then your argument for contesting Hrolfs theory will never ever cause you to think he might have a point!
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cryrst

The garden of England 20 May 23 9.38pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

By "people like you" there's no need to look any further than those who make everything about immigration and believe in the "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory.

In an earlier post I asked if you had a thought that may be negative about immigration.
If you don’t in even the smallest way, then your argument for contesting Hrolfs theory will never ever cause you to think he might have a point!

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 20 May 23 10.48pm
Originally posted by cryrst In an earlier post I asked if you had a thought that may be negative about immigration. If you don’t in even the smallest way, then your argument for contesting Hrolfs theory will never ever cause you to think he might have a point! I think I would have said that as there are positives and negatives about almost everything there clearly are about immigration. I don't think about it that way. I think when something is, then you need to come to terms with it and emphasise the positive and minimise the negative impacts. So the real question is whether it "is". As I see no viable alternative in the immediate, or mid-term to continued managed immigration then I believe it is. My primary argument though is with the debunked "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory. I won't repeat again why it is debunked, but you can quickly discover that if you wish to. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 20 May 23 10.48pm

Originally posted by cryrst

I think I would have said that as there are positives and negatives about almost everything there clearly are about immigration.

I don't think about it that way. I think when something is, then you need to come to terms with it and emphasise the positive and minimise the negative impacts. So the real question is whether it "is". As I see no viable alternative in the immediate, or mid-term to continued managed immigration then I believe it is.

My primary argument though is with the debunked "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory. I won't repeat again why it is debunked, but you can quickly discover that if you wish to.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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cryrst The garden of England 21 May 23 2.42am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I think I would have said that as there are positives and negatives about almost everything there clearly are about immigration. I don't think about it that way. I think when something is, then you need to come to terms with it and emphasise the positive and minimise the negative impacts. So the real question is whether it "is". As I see no viable alternative in the immediate, or mid-term to continued managed immigration then I believe it is. My primary argument though is with the debunked "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory. I won't repeat again why it is debunked, but you can quickly discover that if you wish to. It wasn’t about a viable alternative, it was asked whether there are any negatives.
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cryrst

The garden of England 21 May 23 2.42am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I think I would have said that as there are positives and negatives about almost everything there clearly are about immigration.

My primary argument though is with the debunked "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory. I won't repeat again why it is debunked, but you can quickly discover that if you wish to.

It wasn’t about a viable alternative, it was asked whether there are any negatives.

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Stirlingsays 21 May 23 4.12am
Starmer has been tacking to the right in his speeches. It has Blair's fingerprints all over it. He even said, 'tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime' in the one I heard....like Blair, it's all about soft focused language and when you read between the lines it's all the same private/public partnership blue sky thinking stuff....spoon feeding the normies nonsense essentially. He has also doing the Cameron trick of altering selection in the Labour party to filter out any 'Corbyn' types or those critical of his 'New Labour 2.0' attempt that he's clearly doing. I'll say it now, as it's a principle of mine, political parties have to represent their members, they do not exist to represent a cartel of ambitious power hungry dishonest MPs. This should be true for all parties, left or right. As for the Tories, objectively speaking I think their only chance of winning the next election is in reinstating Johnson....otherwise it's just a case how how badly they lose....Before the SNP voted in that fruitcake as leader I would have thought Labour winning was unlikely even with continual Tory cock ups.....but I see Labour making a big comeback in Scotland now at the SNP's expense. Don't get me wrong, I regard Johnson's time as leader as an abject failure....as I view the last twenty years really....but that's besides the point. Johnson can rightly say that he was removed when he had the voter's mandate. If the Tories are serious about winning the election they need someone with chrisma...an election winner and Johnson is that....if not much else. Starmer is incredibly boring and compared to Johnson the normies are going to like blondie.....Against anyone else, especially Sunak the lack of star power means that Starmer is going to win based upon economic decline. Not that Starmer would have made any significantly different decisions to the ones that led here but reality makes little difference to mainstream messaging and the choices on offer to the public are the usual 'crap A' and 'crap B'. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

21 May 23 4.12am

Starmer has been tacking to the right in his speeches. It has Blair's fingerprints all over it. He even said, 'tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime' in the one I heard....like Blair, it's all about soft focused language and when you read between the lines it's all the same private/public partnership blue sky thinking stuff....spoon feeding the normies nonsense essentially.

He has also doing the Cameron trick of altering selection in the Labour party to filter out any 'Corbyn' types or those critical of his 'New Labour 2.0' attempt that he's clearly doing.

I'll say it now, as it's a principle of mine, political parties have to represent their members, they do not exist to represent a cartel of ambitious power hungry dishonest MPs. This should be true for all parties, left or right.

As for the Tories, objectively speaking I think their only chance of winning the next election is in reinstating Johnson....otherwise it's just a case how how badly they lose....Before the SNP voted in that fruitcake as leader I would have thought Labour winning was unlikely even with continual Tory cock ups.....but I see Labour making a big comeback in Scotland now at the SNP's expense.

Don't get me wrong, I regard Johnson's time as leader as an abject failure....as I view the last twenty years really....but that's besides the point. Johnson can rightly say that he was removed when he had the voter's mandate. If the Tories are serious about winning the election they need someone with chrisma...an election winner and Johnson is that....if not much else.

Starmer is incredibly boring and compared to Johnson the normies are going to like blondie.....Against anyone else, especially Sunak the lack of star power means that Starmer is going to win based upon economic decline.

Not that Starmer would have made any significantly different decisions to the ones that led here but reality makes little difference to mainstream messaging and the choices on offer to the public are the usual 'crap A' and 'crap B'.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 21 May 23 4.15am
Originally posted by cryrst It wasn’t about a viable alternative, it was asked whether there are any negatives. Not in Cornwall. Yet. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 May 2023 4.16am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

21 May 23 4.15am

Originally posted by cryrst

It wasn’t about a viable alternative, it was asked whether there are any negatives.

Not in Cornwall.

Yet.

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 May 2023 4.16am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 22 May 23 6.00pm
This is what a high trust, low crime, monocultural society can look like. We on the other hand were the island whose leaders decided to chose the opposite on all those metrics. [Tweet Link] Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2023 6.16pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

22 May 23 6.00pm

This is what a high trust, low crime, monocultural society can look like.

We on the other hand were the island whose leaders decided to chose the opposite on all those metrics.

[Tweet Link]

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2023 6.16pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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