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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Oct 14 10.09pm
Quote TUX at 06 Oct 2014 7.17pm I can truly say I totally and utterly disagree with the point here. No single group in this country should affect the decision making of our parliament.....You are suggesting that the fear of radical Muslims should dictate policy decisions. @Stirling...... But it has, just as it has in the US. The powers that be 'create fear'. This artificial fear (The War On Terror, really?) is a trump card when pushing through yet more ridiculous laws to 'control us' under the weak guise of 'protection'. You refer to a 'single group' but which 'single group' has done more damage and has had the greater effect? Tony Blair is still a free man, and an extremely wealthy one at that Edited by TUX (06 Oct 2014 7.24pm) Terrorism is just the new justification of control, previously its been communism and drugs that justified the introduction of 'special powers' of control to direct the people towards the 'correct path'. The state will always manufacture new justifications for control, because ultimately the state fears the will of its people, that they, the masses, will eventually realise that they do not need the 'elite few'. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Oct 14 10.09pm

Quote TUX at 06 Oct 2014 7.17pm

I can truly say I totally and utterly disagree with the point here. No single group in this country should affect the decision making of our parliament.....You are suggesting that the fear of radical Muslims should dictate policy decisions.

@Stirling......
But it has, just as it has in the US. The powers that be 'create fear'. This artificial fear (The War On Terror, really?) is a trump card when pushing through yet more ridiculous laws to 'control us' under the weak guise of 'protection'.
You refer to a 'single group' but which 'single group' has done more damage and has had the greater effect?
Tony Blair is still a free man, and an extremely wealthy one at that

Edited by TUX (06 Oct 2014 7.24pm)

Terrorism is just the new justification of control, previously its been communism and drugs that justified the introduction of 'special powers' of control to direct the people towards the 'correct path'.

The state will always manufacture new justifications for control, because ultimately the state fears the will of its people, that they, the masses, will eventually realise that they do not need the 'elite few'.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 09 Oct 14 8.20am
Tony Blair and Dubya are living the life of Riley. I feel sorry for all the allied armed forces who've been placed into areas of danger, due to political incompetence. Especially those killed or injured. It's politicians like Cameron/Clegg and Obama who now have to sort out the shlt left behind when Bush and Blair had no defined mission statement or exit strategy. Now Allied ground troops will be required again, in far larger quantities. It's 'when', not 'if'. Money that could have been better spent at home, rather than deploying soldiers. Then setting up 'Help for Heroes' charidee, rather than paying these service people the compensation they fully deserve from Government funds. Edited by Forest Hillbilly (09 Oct 2014 8.55am) I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 09 Oct 14 8.20am

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Tony Blair and Dubya are living the life of Riley.

I feel sorry for all the allied armed forces who've been placed into areas of danger, due to political incompetence. Especially those killed or injured.

It's politicians like Cameron/Clegg and Obama who now have to sort out the shlt left behind when Bush and Blair had no defined mission statement or exit strategy.
Now Allied ground troops will be required again, in far larger quantities. It's 'when', not 'if'.

Money that could have been better spent at home, rather than deploying soldiers. Then setting up 'Help for Heroes' charidee, rather than paying these service people the compensation they fully deserve from Government funds.

Edited by Forest Hillbilly (09 Oct 2014 8.55am)

I disengage, I turn the page.

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Stirlingsays 09 Oct 14 10.37pm
I watched those towers fall down......All those who talk about governments artificially creating fear need their heads examined. It's just a subjective non proveable argument over how much money should be spent. I tell you what....go and live in the land with no 'created fear' or overbearing government...I'll happily stay here while you go look......I'll put the kettle on....While you're gone I'll try not to be wrecked with angst over how my life has been terribly affected over the changes introduced since our terribly controlling governments introduced greater powers to deal with nutters. I truly don't know how I'll get through.....Somehow I must try. Gawd blimey. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

09 Oct 14 10.37pm

I watched those towers fall down......All those who talk about governments artificially creating fear need their heads examined.

It's just a subjective non proveable argument over how much money should be spent.

I tell you what....go and live in the land with no 'created fear' or overbearing government...I'll happily stay here while you go look......I'll put the kettle on....While you're gone I'll try not to be wrecked with angst over how my life has been terribly affected over the changes introduced since our terribly controlling governments introduced greater powers to deal with nutters.

I truly don't know how I'll get through.....Somehow I must try.

Gawd blimey.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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sanitycheck 09 Oct 14 11.38pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Oct 2014 10.37pm I watched those towers fall down......All those who talk about governments artificially creating fear need their heads examined. "I saw something extreme and horrible on the TV 12 years ago and this means that governments have never and will never attempt to use fear to influence the public. Anyone saying otherwise is mad". More anger than argument. For one you're incorrect but to add a bit of colour to the black and white... there clearly needs to be a balance between security and liberty in any country. Who could argue against that? Freedoms are fought for not given. Governments shift over time too, sometimes in directions that are worrisome or against the interests of the population. We are not exempt from that happening and need to keep it in mind when we patronise people for caring about such matters. Just because people with more guts than us fought for you to sit around drinking tea while failing to acknowledge complexities of power and politics it doesn't mean that we all feel the need to stifle debate. Edited by sanitycheck (10 Oct 2014 12.29am)
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sanitycheck

09 Oct 14 11.38pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Oct 2014 10.37pm

I watched those towers fall down......All those who talk about governments artificially creating fear need their heads examined.

"I saw something extreme and horrible on the TV 12 years ago and this means that governments have never and will never attempt to use fear to influence the public. Anyone saying otherwise is mad".

More anger than argument.

For one you're incorrect but to add a bit of colour to the black and white...

there clearly needs to be a balance between security and liberty in any country. Who could argue against that? Freedoms are fought for not given. Governments shift over time too, sometimes in directions that are worrisome or against the interests of the population. We are not exempt from that happening and need to keep it in mind when we patronise people for caring about such matters. Just because people with more guts than us fought for you to sit around drinking tea while failing to acknowledge complexities of power and politics it doesn't mean that we all feel the need to stifle debate.

Edited by sanitycheck (10 Oct 2014 12.29am)

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Stirlingsays 10 Oct 14 6.31am
Quote sanitycheck at 09 Oct 2014 11.38pm Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Oct 2014 10.37pm I watched those towers fall down......All those who talk about governments artificially creating fear need their heads examined. "I saw something extreme and horrible on the TV 12 years ago and this means that governments have never and will never attempt to use fear to influence the public. Anyone saying otherwise is mad". More anger than argument. For one you're incorrect but to add a bit of colour to the black and white... there clearly needs to be a balance between security and liberty in any country. Who could argue against that? Freedoms are fought for not given. Governments shift over time too, sometimes in directions that are worrisome or against the interests of the population. We are not exempt from that happening and need to keep it in mind when we patronise people for caring about such matters. Just because people with more guts than us fought for you to sit around drinking tea while failing to acknowledge complexities of power and politics it doesn't mean that we all feel the need to stifle debate. Edited by sanitycheck (10 Oct 2014 12.29am) Firstly I'd say that you should stay away from the old, 'people in the war' fought for this or that ideal. Some fought for high ideals, most didn't. Most people aren't political, some would have fought for reasons that you would hate.....Characterising political reasons why large groups of diverse people do things in support of an argument is always a mistake. Secondly I'm most definitely not looking to stifle debate. I'm happy for you to express youf views. Indeed I support your expression of them as the manifestation of one of the tenets of a free society. But this doesn't mean that I shouldn't criticise views that I don't agree with or point out where I think the holes are in the view......That is also the healthy expression of a free society.......Debate and challenge is a positive not a negative. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Oct 14 6.31am

Quote sanitycheck at 09 Oct 2014 11.38pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Oct 2014 10.37pm

I watched those towers fall down......All those who talk about governments artificially creating fear need their heads examined.

"I saw something extreme and horrible on the TV 12 years ago and this means that governments have never and will never attempt to use fear to influence the public. Anyone saying otherwise is mad".

More anger than argument.

For one you're incorrect but to add a bit of colour to the black and white...

Edited by sanitycheck (10 Oct 2014 12.29am)

Firstly I'd say that you should stay away from the old, 'people in the war' fought for this or that ideal.

Some fought for high ideals, most didn't.

Most people aren't political, some would have fought for reasons that you would hate.....Characterising political reasons why large groups of diverse people do things in support of an argument is always a mistake.

Secondly I'm most definitely not looking to stifle debate. I'm happy for you to express youf views. Indeed I support your expression of them as the manifestation of one of the tenets of a free society.
But this doesn't mean that I shouldn't criticise views that I don't agree with or point out where I think the holes are in the view......That is also the healthy expression of a free society.......Debate and challenge is a positive not a negative.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Oct 14 7.57am
Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Oct 2014 10.37pm I watched those towers fall down......All those who talk about governments artificially creating fear need their heads examined. It's just a subjective non proveable argument over how much money should be spent. I think that certain countries certainly took advantage of those events to implement an agenda that otherwise would have been impossible. The US could never have implemented something as broadly curtailing of civil liberties in the US as the patriot act without 9-11. Certainly, manufacturing the consent for the Iraq invasion was dependent on that event. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 10 Oct 14 7.57am

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Oct 2014 10.37pm

I watched those towers fall down......All those who talk about governments artificially creating fear need their heads examined.

It's just a subjective non proveable argument over how much money should be spent.

I think that certain countries certainly took advantage of those events to implement an agenda that otherwise would have been impossible. The US could never have implemented something as broadly curtailing of civil liberties in the US as the patriot act without 9-11. Certainly, manufacturing the consent for the Iraq invasion was dependent on that event.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Kermit8 Hevon 10 Oct 14 8.20am
The US admin and their cohorts did their very, very best via media outlets to put the fear of God into us about Saddam Hussein after 9/11 making him out to be the no.1 enemy even though he was secular and wasn't anything to do with what happened. I wonder why? Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 10 Oct 14 8.20am

The US admin and their cohorts did their very, very best via media outlets to put the fear of God into us about Saddam Hussein after 9/11 making him out to be the no.1 enemy even though he was secular and wasn't anything to do with what happened.

I wonder why?

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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legaleagle 10 Oct 14 8.40am
You are right. The decision after 9/11 to go into Iraq had no justification whatsoever under the "war on terror" and was a convenient way to lump in (and get public support for) Republican foreign policy aspirations in the region alongside (understandable) revulsion at 9/11 and a desire to respond... But, we are where we are.. and yes must remain vigilant against any further such "cons"(and yes of course they still abound). But, as to whether that means there is no reason, here and now, to be very concerned about jihadi salafism and the consequences of its rise in various parts of the globe including Iraq and Syria , is another matter... The genie is well and truly out of the bottle...whoever might have contributed to that to date... Personally, I find the present cynical actions of the Turkish government beyond sick....in terms of projecing ISIS and the Kurds as twin evils and standing by (on their own border) while just over the border it looks like the clocks are going to be changed to go back a few hundred years, and once again the Kurds get it in the neck. Edited by legaleagle (10 Oct 2014 8.42am)
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legaleagle

10 Oct 14 8.40am

You are right. The decision after 9/11 to go into Iraq had no justification whatsoever under the "war on terror" and was a convenient way to lump in (and get public support for) Republican foreign policy aspirations in the region alongside (understandable) revulsion at 9/11 and a desire to respond...

But, we are where we are.. and yes must remain vigilant against any further such "cons"(and yes of course they still abound). But, as to whether that means there is no reason, here and now, to be very concerned about jihadi salafism and the consequences of its rise in various parts of the globe including Iraq and Syria , is another matter... The genie is well and truly out of the bottle...whoever might have contributed to that to date...

Personally, I find the present cynical actions of the Turkish government beyond sick....in terms of projecing ISIS and the Kurds as twin evils and standing by (on their own border) while just over the border it looks like the clocks are going to be changed to go back a few hundred years, and once again the Kurds get it in the neck.

Edited by legaleagle (10 Oct 2014 8.42am)

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 10 Oct 14 10.14am
Quote legaleagle at 10 Oct 2014 8.40am You are right. The decision after 9/11 to go into Iraq had no justification whatsoever under the "war on terror" and was a convenient way to lump in (and get public support for) Republican foreign policy aspirations in the region alongside (understandable) revulsion at 9/11 and a desire to respond... But, we are where we are.. and yes must remain vigilant against any further such "cons"(and yes of course they still abound). But, as to whether that means there is no reason, here and now, to be very concerned about jihadi salafism and the consequences of its rise in various parts of the globe including Iraq and Syria , is another matter... The genie is well and truly out of the bottle...whoever might have contributed to that to date... Personally, I find the present cynical actions of the Turkish government beyond sick....in terms of projecing ISIS and the Kurds as twin evils and standing by (on their own border) while just over the border it looks like the clocks are going to be changed to go back a few hundred years, and once again the Kurds get it in the neck. Edited by legaleagle (10 Oct 2014 8.42am) Who'd be a Kurd in Kobane, eh? Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 10 Oct 14 10.14am

Quote legaleagle at 10 Oct 2014 8.40am

Edited by legaleagle (10 Oct 2014 8.42am)

Who'd be a Kurd in Kobane, eh?

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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Kermit8 Hevon 10 Oct 14 11.17am
^^^^^ smells like no pun limit Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 10 Oct 14 11.17am

^^^^^

smells like no pun limit

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 10 Oct 14 12.05pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 10 Oct 2014 7.57am Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Oct 2014 10.37pm I watched those towers fall down......All those who talk about governments artificially creating fear need their heads examined. It's just a subjective non proveable argument over how much money should be spent. I think that certain countries certainly took advantage of those events to implement an agenda that otherwise would have been impossible. The US could never have implemented something as broadly curtailing of civil liberties in the US as the patriot act without 9-11. Certainly, manufacturing the consent for the Iraq invasion was dependent on that event. I think those points are pretty much undeniable truths. But were these actions unreasonable? Are unfetted civil liberties a realistic reality for an achievably safe environment? Personally I think not. Did or have they gone too far?.....Probably...Maybe...I don't know. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Oct 14 12.05pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 10 Oct 2014 7.57am

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Oct 2014 10.37pm

I watched those towers fall down......All those who talk about governments artificially creating fear need their heads examined.

It's just a subjective non proveable argument over how much money should be spent.

I think those points are pretty much undeniable truths.

But were these actions unreasonable? Are unfetted civil liberties a realistic reality for an achievably safe environment?

Personally I think not.

Did or have they gone too far?.....Probably...Maybe...I don't know.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 10 Oct 14 2.49pm
Quote Kermit8 at 10 Oct 2014 8.20am The US admin and their cohorts did their very, very best via media outlets to put the fear of God into us about Saddam Hussein after 9/11 making him out to be the no.1 enemy even though he was secular and wasn't anything to do with what happened. I wonder why? That moustache just had to go. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Oct 14 2.49pm

Quote Kermit8 at 10 Oct 2014 8.20am

I wonder why?

That moustache just had to go.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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