This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In
Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Mar 24 11.27pm | |
---|---|
What a surprise. The usual apologist rushes to defend the actions of the worst aggressor we have seen in Europe for 80 years. Someone we cannot be sure our nuclear deterrent will deter. Someone who once said that a world without Russia was not a world worth having. Someone whose true motives are undecipherable. Someone you simply cannot trust, so cannot deal with. Going blindly into the future without preparing for a worst case scenario when you are dealing with Putin is beyond irresponsible. It’s crazy. We might not expect the worst, but we need to be ready. That ready cannot just rely on the nuclear option, when we know that’s not really a usable option. Sure, just cede all the former Soviet countries back to Russia and let Putin have to deal with their resistance again. That will keep him busy. They are only Slavs after all. Not truly part of the “white” race so don’t matter. Somehow I don’t think they will agree to that, and nor should they. There are no easy options available but showing weakness in the face of aggression isn’t one of them. I will ignore the pathetic personal slurs and treat them with the contempt they deserve. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (29 Mar 2024 11.32pm)
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 30 Mar 24 12.15am | |
---|---|
Another post that sounds like he's drunk. 'Someone who once said that a world without Russia was not a world worth having.' When on earth did I say that? I believe you made that up. Also the argument that you can't depend on nukes is absurd. Their deterrence has been the single element more than anything else in keeping peace...and that was back when the Soviets actually did have plans. But ok, I'll go with it....So tell me that nuclear state that has been attacked and overthrown....I'll wait. I care no more about Russia than I do about Ukraine...my only interests in them are the fact that they are both European...Ukraine even more so (until this guy's EU leaders start to mix it up). My motives on many things are a defence of natural law....the world of reason. I tend to react against those that seek to bend it for their own purposes. What I will say is that it's people like this guy and those that agreed with him that have resulted in hundreds of thousands of brave mostly men being in graves......all cheered on by people like him who would never get their hands dirty doing the business of killing. Words like 'apologists' and 'appeasement' resulted in the peace deal two years ago being rejected. People should reflect upon the costs of that....That agreement would have let you build up defences all you liked behind lines with much more land and several more cities than Ukraine has now with a population and viable economy....but no clowns using words like 'apologist' and 'appeasement' had their way and now look....Ukraine is screwed, even if it won it's screwed. Now you're being told you have to suffer economically to fight a war that these clowns want you to fight.....all because they would rather that than admit to their own stupidity. And they have been so very very stupid. But as I've stated many times, those that suffer no consequences for failure feel no need to cede ground. Regardless the outcome of this war is inevitable not because I have any particular interest in who wins what but because I don't base analysis on emotions but what objective reality is. If we had people like that in power the world would be a lot better...but instead we get disaster zones like the guy above. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2024 8.00am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 30 Mar 24 8.44am | |
---|---|
Nuclear deterrents do deter. They deter other nuclear powers in the first use of their nuclear weapons. What they don’t do is deter the use of other military action. As we have seen. Will it stop with Ukraine? We all hope so. We hope the cost of it will deter further expansion. A cost that would not have been demanded had we just turned aside or appeased Putin in the early days. It’s the cost that deters, not the nukes. Hope though is not enough. Especially with someone like Putin and the prospect of a second Trump presidency. No-one expects a direct attack on a NATO state. Yet! If there is an emasculated NATO, under resourced and unsure of its capabilities, who knows what might be attempted. Nibbling at the edges and undermining resolve would be enough to destabilise. We cannot trust Putin or know what the ultimate ambitions are. That Russia has been covertly interfering with the political life of the western nations for years is an established reality. We have effectively been in another Cold War for many years. One not of our choosing. One that doesn’t cost lives but impacts us all. Now we have a hot war that is costing a lot of lives, but one which was again not of our choosing. Neither could simply be ignored and “territory ceded”! The territory isn’t ours to cede anymore than it’s Putin’s to take. We might have preferred a settlement but you can only settle if you trust your partner or can ensure their compliance, which with Putin is impossible. By the way it was Putin who said that a world without Russia was not a world worth having. As was completely obvious from the context. Only a drunk could conclude differently! At nearly 80 I am well past fighting age. Why though should that mean my analysis of any situation be invalid? My capacity to think is not impaired and a long life brings the benefit of experience whilst the lack of any likely personal involvement brings objectivity and a focus on outcomes. Sniping of this kind is probably as close to a gun that those who indulge in it will ever get.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
NJ CLOCKTOWER Tarragona 30 Mar 24 8.58am | |
---|---|
The invasion of Ukraine by Russia in 2014 was a result of various factors and complex geopolitical dynamics. The official reason given by Russia was to protect ethnic Russians and Russian-speaking minorities in Ukraine, particularly in the Crimea region and eastern parts of the country. However, there are several other key factors contributing to the invasion: 1. Crimea Referendum: Following the ousting of Ukraine's pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych after widespread protests in 2014, Russia saw an opportunity to annex Crimea, a region historically significant to Russia. A hastily organized referendum was conducted in Crimea, with a majority opting to join Russia. This move was not recognized by Ukraine or the international community. 2. Strategic Interests: Russia has long considered Ukraine as part of its sphere of influence, both politically and strategically. Ukraine is historically connected to Russia and shares cultural, linguistic, and economic ties. The annexation of Crimea allowed Russia to secure its Black Sea Fleet based in Sevastopol, crucial for projecting power in the region. 3. Geopolitical Competition: The invasion can also be seen as a means for Russia to assert itself against Western encroachment in Eastern Europe. The European Union and NATO's growing influence in Ukraine, through proposed closer ties and potential membership, threatened Russia's dominance in the region. 4. Energy Supply: Ukraine is a vital transit country for Russian natural gas exports to Europe. The invasion allowed Russia to gain control over Crimea's natural gas reserves and maintain control over crucial energy supply routes, reducing Ukraine's bargaining power. 5. Separatist Movements: Russia capitalized on existing separatist sentiments in eastern Ukraine, supporting pro-Russian rebels in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. This helped create a prolonged conflict in those areas, destabilizing Ukraine and further justifying Russian intervention. It is important to note that Russia denies any direct involvement in the conflict and labels its actions as supporting "self-defense forces." The international community, including the United Nations and multiple countries, has condemned Russia's actions as a violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
NJ CLOCKTOWER Tarragona 30 Mar 24 9.12am | |
---|---|
Vladimir Putin, has been criticized for several actions and policies that can be seen as detrimental to various aspects of human rights, international relations, and democracy. Some of the terrible things he has been accused of include: The Suppression of political opposition: Putin has been cracking down on political opponents, both within Russia and abroad, by using various tactics such as intimidation, arrests, and disqualification from elections. Several opposition leaders have faced imprisonment, exile, or even assassination attempts. Suppression of freedom of expression: Under Putin's rule, Russia has witnessed a shrinking space for dissent, independent media, and civil society. Media outlets critical of the government have been shut down, journalists have faced threats and violence, and laws restricting online free speech and access to information have been passed. Putin has faced allegations of human rights abuses, including suppression of LGBTQ+ rights, infringement on the freedom of assembly and association, and disregard for fair trial and due process. Cases of torture, enforced disappearances, and extrajudicial killings have also been reported. Also, the Support for authoritarian regimes: Russia under Putin has been known to support authoritarian regimes globally. It has backed regimes like Syria's Bashar al-Assad, accused of war crimes and human rights abuses, and has reportedly interfered in other countries' elections and democratic processes. His Aggressive foreign policy: Putin's administration has been accused of pursuing an assertive and belligerent foreign policy, including alleged cyber-attacks, disinformation campaigns, and meddling in other countries' affairs. These actions have strained Russia's relations with several Western democracies. To summarize he's not a very nice chap
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
NJ CLOCKTOWER Tarragona 30 Mar 24 9.21am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Nuclear deterrents do deter. They deter other nuclear powers in the first use of their nuclear weapons. What they don’t do is deter the use of other military action. As we have seen. Will it stop with Ukraine? We all hope so. We hope the cost of it will deter further expansion. A cost that would not have been demanded had we just turned aside or appeased Putin in the early days. It’s the cost that deters, not the nukes. Hope though is not enough. Especially with someone like Putin and the prospect of a second Trump presidency. No-one expects a direct attack on a NATO state. Yet! If there is an emasculated NATO, under resourced and unsure of its capabilities, who knows what might be attempted. Nibbling at the edges and undermining resolve would be enough to destabilise. We cannot trust Putin or know what the ultimate ambitions are. That Russia has been covertly interfering with the political life of the western nations for years is an established reality. We have effectively been in another Cold War for many years. One not of our choosing. One that doesn’t cost lives but impacts us all. Now we have a hot war that is costing a lot of lives, but one which was again not of our choosing. Neither could simply be ignored and “territory ceded”! The territory isn’t ours to cede anymore than it’s Putin’s to take. We might have preferred a settlement but you can only settle if you trust your partner or can ensure their compliance, which with Putin is impossible. By the way it was Putin who said that a world without Russia was not a world worth having. As was completely obvious from the context. Only a drunk could conclude differently! At nearly 80 I am well past fighting age. Why though should that mean my analysis of any situation be invalid? My capacity to think is not impaired and a long life brings the benefit of experience whilst the lack of any likely personal involvement brings objectivity and a focus on outcomes. Sniping of this kind is probably as close to a gun that those who indulge in it will ever get. I understand that you have concerns about the effectiveness of nuclear deterrents and the actions of leaders like Putin. While nuclear weapons can indeed deter other nuclear powers from using their own weapons in a first strike, they may not prevent other forms of military aggression. It is important to consider the broader context of geopolitical conflicts, such as the situation in Ukraine. I share your hope that further expansion and destabilization can be deterred at a cost, but as you rightly point out, hope alone is not enough. Trusting Putin or any leader with questionable intentions can be challenging, and considering the covert interference Russia has been involved in is a valid concern. It is crucial to address these issues and stand firm against any attempt to undermine our nations' political life. Your age and experience should not diminish the value of your analysis or opinion on these matters. Different perspectives and a focus on outcomes are essential for a comprehensive understanding of complex situations. While engaging in online debates may feel like a form of "sniping," constructive dialogue and the sharing of diverse viewpoints can lead to greater understanding and potential solutions.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
NJ CLOCKTOWER Tarragona 30 Mar 24 9.39am | |
---|---|
The only country who has ever reached Moscow The Polish Army advanced close to Moscow during the early 17th century and even captured the city in 1610 during the Polish-Muscovite War. However, their control was indeed short-lived, as they were eventually expelled by Russian forces led by Dmitry Pozharsky in 1612. As a first generation Pole and long time Palace fan. I am biased against Russia. But the above is the reason why Russians hate the Polish so much. Russians have also been defeated by the likes of Japan and Finland. And with enough help Ukraine can defeat them as well
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 30 Mar 24 9.39am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by NJ CLOCKTOWER
The invasion of Ukraine by Russia in 2014 was a result of various factors and complex geopolitical dynamics. The official reason given by Russia was to protect ethnic Russians and Russian-speaking minorities in Ukraine, particularly in the Crimea region and eastern parts of the country. However, there are several other key factors contributing to the invasion: 1. Crimea Referendum: Following the ousting of Ukraine's pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych after widespread protests in 2014, Russia saw an opportunity to annex Crimea, a region historically significant to Russia. A hastily organized referendum was conducted in Crimea, with a majority opting to join Russia. This move was not recognized by Ukraine or the international community. 2. Strategic Interests: Russia has long considered Ukraine as part of its sphere of influence, both politically and strategically. Ukraine is historically connected to Russia and shares cultural, linguistic, and economic ties. The annexation of Crimea allowed Russia to secure its Black Sea Fleet based in Sevastopol, crucial for projecting power in the region. 3. Geopolitical Competition: The invasion can also be seen as a means for Russia to assert itself against Western encroachment in Eastern Europe. The European Union and NATO's growing influence in Ukraine, through proposed closer ties and potential membership, threatened Russia's dominance in the region. 4. Energy Supply: Ukraine is a vital transit country for Russian natural gas exports to Europe. The invasion allowed Russia to gain control over Crimea's natural gas reserves and maintain control over crucial energy supply routes, reducing Ukraine's bargaining power. 5. Separatist Movements: Russia capitalized on existing separatist sentiments in eastern Ukraine, supporting pro-Russian rebels in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. This helped create a prolonged conflict in those areas, destabilizing Ukraine and further justifying Russian intervention. It is important to note that Russia denies any direct involvement in the conflict and labels its actions as supporting "self-defense forces." The international community, including the United Nations and multiple countries, has condemned Russia's actions as a violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. I'd say that's a pretty reasonable summary.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 30 Mar 24 9.41am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by NJ CLOCKTOWER
Vladimir Putin, has been criticized for several actions and policies that can be seen as detrimental to various aspects of human rights, international relations, and democracy. Some of the terrible things he has been accused of include: The Suppression of political opposition: Putin has been cracking down on political opponents, both within Russia and abroad, by using various tactics such as intimidation, arrests, and disqualification from elections. Several opposition leaders have faced imprisonment, exile, or even assassination attempts. Suppression of freedom of expression: Under Putin's rule, Russia has witnessed a shrinking space for dissent, independent media, and civil society. Media outlets critical of the government have been shut down, journalists have faced threats and violence, and laws restricting online free speech and access to information have been passed. Putin has faced allegations of human rights abuses, including suppression of LGBTQ+ rights, infringement on the freedom of assembly and association, and disregard for fair trial and due process. Cases of torture, enforced disappearances, and extrajudicial killings have also been reported. Also, the Support for authoritarian regimes: Russia under Putin has been known to support authoritarian regimes globally. It has backed regimes like Syria's Bashar al-Assad, accused of war crimes and human rights abuses, and has reportedly interfered in other countries' elections and democratic processes. His Aggressive foreign policy: Putin's administration has been accused of pursuing an assertive and belligerent foreign policy, including alleged cyber-attacks, disinformation campaigns, and meddling in other countries' affairs. These actions have strained Russia's relations with several Western democracies. To summarize he's not a very nice chap Aside from a couple of points I'd largely agree with that as well.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 30 Mar 24 9.43am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by NJ CLOCKTOWER
The only country who has ever reached Moscow The Polish Army advanced close to Moscow during the early 17th century and even captured the city in 1610 during the Polish-Muscovite War. However, their control was indeed short-lived, as they were eventually expelled by Russian forces led by Dmitry Pozharsky in 1612. As a first generation Pole and long time Palace fan. I am biased against Russia. But the above is the reason why Russians hate the Polish so much. Russians have also been defeated by the likes of Japan and Finland. And with enough help Ukraine can defeat them as well Ok....now I think you've lost the plot. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2024 9.43am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 30 Mar 24 9.53am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Nuclear deterrents do deter. They deter other nuclear powers in the first use of their nuclear weapons. What they don’t do is deter the use of other military action. As we have seen. Will it stop with Ukraine? We all hope so. We hope the cost of it will deter further expansion. A cost that would not have been demanded had we just turned aside or appeased Putin in the early days. It’s the cost that deters, not the nukes. Hope though is not enough. Especially with someone like Putin and the prospect of a second Trump presidency. No-one expects a direct attack on a NATO state. Yet! If there is an emasculated NATO, under resourced and unsure of its capabilities, who knows what might be attempted. Nibbling at the edges and undermining resolve would be enough to destabilise. We cannot trust Putin or know what the ultimate ambitions are. That Russia has been covertly interfering with the political life of the western nations for years is an established reality. We have effectively been in another Cold War for many years. One not of our choosing. One that doesn’t cost lives but impacts us all. Now we have a hot war that is costing a lot of lives, but one which was again not of our choosing. Neither could simply be ignored and “territory ceded”! The territory isn’t ours to cede anymore than it’s Putin’s to take. We might have preferred a settlement but you can only settle if you trust your partner or can ensure their compliance, which with Putin is impossible. By the way it was Putin who said that a world without Russia was not a world worth having. As was completely obvious from the context. Only a drunk could conclude differently! At nearly 80 I am well past fighting age. Why though should that mean my analysis of any situation be invalid? My capacity to think is not impaired and a long life brings the benefit of experience whilst the lack of any likely personal involvement brings objectivity and a focus on outcomes. Sniping of this kind is probably as close to a gun that those who indulge in it will ever get. I will answer this post directly. The reason for that? Well, though you phrased it poorly I can see how you could be referring to Putin and thus you have an apology for my misunderstanding. No, I think to most people in the world it very clearly is nukes that deter....the cost is the reality of their use. People perhaps need to look at the photos of their former use in Japan...using a payload far far lower than what would be used today. I think you don't understand Putin and the positions of the ruling elites in Russia. I regard that emulation in our own elites as far more dangerous than anything he currently plans. However, words are one thing, actions are another as the lack of spending on war economies in Nato reflect the deeper truth of what will happen....which is an eventual negotiation with Russia. Why is your view invalid?...well, don't get me wrong, none of what we say here amounts to a hill of beans. My position however is that people who aren't realistically going to suffer from a decision shouldn't be the ones making them...that relates to the insulation of wealth and loyalty amongst other aspects. Your age makes it easy to commit young men to die because you aren't going to be among them. It wasn't a comment on your age impairing your capacity to think....while I largely regard most of your views as ridiculous and harmful to my country I largely think you retain your marbles. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2024 10.47am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
NJ CLOCKTOWER Tarragona 30 Mar 24 9.59am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Ok....now I think you've lost the plot. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2024 9.43am) I lost the plot, many years ago. All I am saying is Russia for its size has been slapped in the face by many small countries
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Registration is now on our new message board
To login with your existing username you will need to convert your account over to the new message board.
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2024 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.