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 matt_himself  Matataland 28 Apr 17 10.25am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
It is not a faith - it is a cult/extremist ideology founded by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. Cults can be purged. Proscription. But, as you know, unfortunately, a certain powerful country or two that the West fawns over in the Middle East subscribes to it. Hence, why the media and others are loathe to call it out for what it is and stoke the general anti-islam sentiment instead. Muddying the waters. And impressionable people like Stirling and Davenotmonkey fall for it. You don't, it appears. Many would disagree that it is a 'cult'. Some would say it is an interpretation of Islam and should be viewed in the same way that Methodism is an interpretation of Christianity. However, I ask again, how would you propose 'purging' or 'stamping out' Wahhabism?
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| Stirlingsays 28 Apr 17 10.25am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
It is not a faith - it is a cult/extremist ideology founded by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. Cults can be purged. Proscription. But, as you know, unfortunately, a certain powerful country or two that the West fawns over in the Middle East subscribes to it. Hence, why the media and others are loathe to call it out for what it is and stoke the general anti-islam sentiment instead. Muddying the waters. And impressionable people like Stirling and Davenotmonkey fall for it. You don't, it appears. Don't you know that ISIS attack Saudi Arabia? Can you stick that head any further into the sand Kermy...hit the water level yet?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 28 Apr 17 10.40am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Listen to and back Islamic reformers in the UK and worldwide.....You know...actually take action. Ban religious schools. Closely monitor mosques and close down problematic ones. Any new immans have to sign up to a Islam that broadly follows a liberal Islam in the vein of Islam reformers. These two I agree with entirely, schools should not be religiously affiliated. Plus we should start indirectly funding liberal Imams and progressive Muslim groups Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Strip nationality of and deport to a negotiated country those Muslims who are members of anti western groups in the UK. I'm not so sure this is viable. But certainly anyone who's a member of a group that's affiliated with a terrorist group is breaking the law. I think deporting them is just making them someone else's problem, and any country that accepts them, is either going to be a supporter, or encourage them to leave for elsewhere as soon as they're deported. Better to imprison them under anti-terrorism conspiracy offences, which carry 20-30 years. Offering them reduced sentences or chances to expunge their sentences entirely on the basis of the value of their co-operation. Most people are happy to die for a cause, not as many are happy to spend the rest of their life in maximum security category a prisoner status.
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Kermit8  Hevon 28 Apr 17 10.52am |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
Many would disagree that it is a 'cult'. Some would say it is an interpretation of Islam and should be viewed in the same way that Methodism is an interpretation of Christianity. However, I ask again, how would you propose 'purging' or 'stamping out' Wahhabism? You must have missed the word 'proscription' in my post. So I say it again - proscription. The Thug cult were not entirely dissimilar in their actions to Wahhabis extremists today and they were crushed after being in existence for hundreds of years so it is doable. Change the word Thug/Thugee to Wahhabi and we have a template. "It wasn’t until the British Raj, or the British Rule that the final suppression and elimination of the Thugs was accomplished. Thuggee was finally suppressed and ended for good in the mid-late 1800s. The suppression and eventual elimination of the Thugs was largely due to the efforts of Sir William Henry Sleeman, the British authority who began an extensive campaign to eliminate the practice of both Thuggee and Dacoity (robbery and murder committed by dacoits, a cult of criminals from India and Burma). Sleeman began operations against the Thugs in 1835, establishing extensive profiling, intelligence and punishment activities. A police organization was formed as the Thuggee and Dacoity Department within the Government of India and remained in existence through 1904 when it was replaced by the Central Criminal Intelligence Department. During Sleeman’s initial operations more than 1400 Thugs were imprisoned for life or hung. British controlled informers and centralized management of intelligence operations opened the tight secrecy of the Thuggee organization. Numerous Thugs were exposed and captured. Constant harassment, exposure, arrest and punishment resulted in the collapse of the entire Thug organization. Eventually the Thuggee movement was extinguished forever in the mid to late 1800s."
British controlled informers and centralized management of intelligence operations opened the tight secrecy of the Thuggee organization. Numerous Thugs were exposed and captured. Constant harassment, exposure, arrest and punishment resulted in the collapse of the entire Thug organization. Eventually the Thuggee movement was extinguished forever in the mid to late 1800s.
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| Kermit8 Hevon 28 Apr 17 11.01am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Don't you know that ISIS attack Saudi Arabia? Can you stick that head any further into the sand Kermy...hit the water level yet?
"The soaring oil price created by the 1973 embargo – when Arab petroleum producers cut off supplies to the US to protest against the Americans’ military support for Israel – gave the Saudi Arabia all the petrodollars it needed to export its idiosyncratic form of Islam. The old military jihad to spread the faith was now replaced by a cultural offensive. The Saudi-based Muslim World League opened offices in every region inhabited by Muslims, and the Saudi ministry of religion printed and distributed Wahhabi translations of the Quran, Wahhabi doctrinal texts and the writings of modern thinkers whom the Saudis found congenial, such as Sayyids Abul-A’la Maududi and Qutb, to Muslim communities throughout the Middle East, Africa, Indonesia, the United States and Europe. In all these places, they funded the building of Saudi-style mosques with Wahhabi preachers and established madrasas that provided free education for the poor, with, of course, a Wahhabi curriculum. At the same time, young men from the poorer Muslim countries, such as Egypt and pakistan, who had felt compelled to find work in the Gulf to support their families, associated their relative affluence with Wahhabism and brought this faith back home with them, living in new neighbourhoods with Saudi mosques and shopping malls that segregated the sexes. The Saudis demanded religious conformity in return for their munificence, so Wahhabi rejection of all other forms of Islam as well as other faiths would reach as deeply into Bradford, England, and Buffalo, New York, as into pakistan, Jordan or Syria: everywhere gravely undermining Islam’s traditional pluralism. A whole generation of Muslims, therefore, has grown up with a maverick form of Islam that has given them a negative view of other faiths and an intolerantly sectarian understanding of their own. While not extremist per se, this is an outlook in which radicalism can develop. "
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| Stirlingsays 28 Apr 17 11.08am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I'm not so sure this is viable. But certainly anyone who's a member of a group that's affiliated with a terrorist group is breaking the law. I think deporting them is just making them someone else's problem, and any country that accepts them, is either going to be a supporter, or encourage them to leave for elsewhere as soon as they're deported. Better to imprison them under anti-terrorism conspiracy offences, which carry 20-30 years. Offering them reduced sentences or chances to expunge their sentences entirely on the basis of the value of their co-operation. Most people are happy to die for a cause, not as many are happy to spend the rest of their life in maximum security category a prisoner status. Whatever approach was more effective. I'm not that bothered for me..though obviously those in cities have to live with it....But the reality is that the percentage is still under ten percent. I'm more bothered for my toddlers. No one is seriously worried about Nick's TA....as has been said no one needs to worry...in terms of pushing for change within the state...with most Muslims here. However as the Pew data shows...the 'activist' wing within Islam is small but significant. Even if action were taken....and it's unlikely given the current culture within the Uk it would meet with large scale resistance from mainstream Islam here....it's socially very conservative and it's leaders treat what we would view as moderate liberal reformers like lepers. As far as I see it all religions are the same insomuch as they are control systems that provide structure for people. If they don't interfere with secularism...in other words the division between religion and state then they all deserve the space beholden to any group within a democracy. Much of mainstream Islam hasn't come to terms with this yet and I'm eager for reformers to enable that here.
Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Apr 2017 11.13am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 28 Apr 17 11.28am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
"The soaring oil price created by the 1973 embargo – when Arab petroleum producers cut off supplies to the US to protest against the Americans’ military support for Israel – gave the Saudi Arabia all the petrodollars it needed to export its idiosyncratic form of Islam. The old military jihad to spread the faith was now replaced by a cultural offensive. The Saudi-based Muslim World League opened offices in every region inhabited by Muslims, and the Saudi ministry of religion printed and distributed Wahhabi translations of the Quran, Wahhabi doctrinal texts and the writings of modern thinkers whom the Saudis found congenial, such as Sayyids Abul-A’la Maududi and Qutb, to Muslim communities throughout the Middle East, Africa, Indonesia, the United States and Europe. In all these places, they funded the building of Saudi-style mosques with Wahhabi preachers and established madrasas that provided free education for the poor, with, of course, a Wahhabi curriculum. At the same time, young men from the poorer Muslim countries, such as Egypt and pakistan, who had felt compelled to find work in the Gulf to support their families, associated their relative affluence with Wahhabism and brought this faith back home with them, living in new neighbourhoods with Saudi mosques and shopping malls that segregated the sexes. The Saudis demanded religious conformity in return for their munificence, so Wahhabi rejection of all other forms of Islam as well as other faiths would reach as deeply into Bradford, England, and Buffalo, New York, as into pakistan, Jordan or Syria: everywhere gravely undermining Islam’s traditional pluralism. A whole generation of Muslims, therefore, has grown up with a maverick form of Islam that has given them a negative view of other faiths and an intolerantly sectarian understanding of their own. While not extremist per se, this is an outlook in which radicalism can develop. " Yes, the house of Saud promote a form of Islam that is anti western....though not officially violent. Your viewpoint is overwhelmingly simplistic. If you have evidence to the contrary that the house of Saud are deliberately promoting war against the west...outside of opinion pieces....I would be interested to see. Indeed...as you failed to address ISIS and before them Al Qaeda other groups have attacked Saud continuously for many years. IS have said they regard the house of Saul as 'non muslims'. Here's a link to the attacks. House of Saud's response to IS. Amusingly enough IS don't attack Iran.....though that's probably because they don't get the living space. Now I agree that the house of Saud are a major problem but I just don't really think your views have anything useful to say about it.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| matt_himself Matataland 28 Apr 17 11.31am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
You must have missed the word 'proscription' in my post. So I say it again - proscription. The Thug cult were not entirely dissimilar in their actions to Wahhabis extremists today and they were crushed after being in existence for hundreds of years so it is doable. Change the word Thug/Thugee to Wahhabi and we have a template. "It wasn’t until the British Raj, or the British Rule that the final suppression and elimination of the Thugs was accomplished. Thuggee was finally suppressed and ended for good in the mid-late 1800s. The suppression and eventual elimination of the Thugs was largely due to the efforts of Sir William Henry Sleeman, the British authority who began an extensive campaign to eliminate the practice of both Thuggee and Dacoity (robbery and murder committed by dacoits, a cult of criminals from India and Burma). Sleeman began operations against the Thugs in 1835, establishing extensive profiling, intelligence and punishment activities. A police organization was formed as the Thuggee and Dacoity Department within the Government of India and remained in existence through 1904 when it was replaced by the Central Criminal Intelligence Department. During Sleeman’s initial operations more than 1400 Thugs were imprisoned for life or hung. British controlled informers and centralized management of intelligence operations opened the tight secrecy of the Thuggee organization. Numerous Thugs were exposed and captured. Constant harassment, exposure, arrest and punishment resulted in the collapse of the entire Thug organization. Eventually the Thuggee movement was extinguished forever in the mid to late 1800s."
British controlled informers and centralized management of intelligence operations opened the tight secrecy of the Thuggee organization. Numerous Thugs were exposed and captured. Constant harassment, exposure, arrest and punishment resulted in the collapse of the entire Thug organization. Eventually the Thuggee movement was extinguished forever in the mid to late 1800s. But Thugs were like the mafia or a criminal group, not a group of people bound by religious belief. Therefore, it is a completely different set of circumstances because, you are right, certain groups can be 'proscribed' when they are bands of thieves. However, and this goes back to my previous posts, I do not believe that banning religion removes the problem. It drives matters in a different direction. Your answer is misguided and way too simplistic.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| Stirlingsays 28 Apr 17 11.44am |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
But Thugs were like the mafia or a criminal group, not a group of people bound by religious belief. Therefore, it is a completely different set of circumstances because, you are right, certain groups can be 'proscribed' when they are bands of thieves. However, and this goes back to my previous posts, I do not believe that banning religion removes the problem. It drives matters in a different direction. Your answer is misguided and way too simplistic. I wonder if Kermy eats lots of apples and oranges because he's certainly constantly using them in his arguments.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 28 Apr 17 12.21pm |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
But Thugs were like the mafia or a criminal group, not a group of people bound by religious belief. Therefore, it is a completely different set of circumstances because, you are right, certain groups can be 'proscribed' when they are bands of thieves. However, and this goes back to my previous posts, I do not believe that banning religion removes the problem. It drives matters in a different direction. Your answer is misguided and way too simplistic. Well to an extent, the Mafia oaths around being 'made', is a Catholic ritual, and a lot of Mafia members attend Catholic church and are practicing Catholics. Which I find quite a remarkable contradiction - How can you the teachings of the Catholic Church and Jesus, and make a living through corruptions, subversion, violence and intimidation... But yes, its not exclusively Catholic - but it is exclusively Italian (in the US and Sicilian in Sicily). Most organised crime groups tend to run along social ties (family, race, region or nationality) or religious ties - Simply because it creates a bond of familiarity and trust against 'outsiders' - whilst allowing them to be accepted within certain communities.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Rubin 28 Apr 17 12.37pm |
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Here's the pew data that I meant to post last night, relating to issues of morality. The homosexuality related one is particularly troubling.
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Jimenez  SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 28 Apr 17 1.17pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Sometimes with Nick you just have to headpalm. Usually with a Burqa on !!
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