General Election 2017

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General Election 2017

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jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Apr 17 2.49pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Because an economy that has a surplus from exploitation or indeed by any other means has far more money to spend on its social programmes. I would have thought that was obvious. Indeed, but the question really is why isn't it, because those who benefit from the system, find that exploitation is beneficial to them - and its easier to exploit people if they're dependent on you, and in fear of their livehoods and economic stability. The problems of morality, is that people are not moral, part of the role of state has to be to regulate and control, in order to limit the extent of exploitation, and ensure the well being of all of its people - not just those who they identify with. The problem with capitalism is the same as with socialism, you can't rely on people to make the moral decision to 'do right' over their own self benefit and interest. That has to be what the state is there for. Edited by jamiemartin721 (21 Apr 2017 2.49pm) "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 21 Apr 17 2.49pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Because an economy that has a surplus from exploitation or indeed by any other means has far more money to spend on its social programmes.

I would have thought that was obvious.

Indeed, but the question really is why isn't it, because those who benefit from the system, find that exploitation is beneficial to them - and its easier to exploit people if they're dependent on you, and in fear of their livehoods and economic stability.

The problems of morality, is that people are not moral, part of the role of state has to be to regulate and control, in order to limit the extent of exploitation, and ensure the well being of all of its people - not just those who they identify with.

The problem with capitalism is the same as with socialism, you can't rely on people to make the moral decision to 'do right' over their own self benefit and interest.

That has to be what the state is there for.

Edited by jamiemartin721 (21 Apr 2017 2.49pm)

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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davenotamonkey 21 Apr 17 2.49pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger What does that mean? I can see that all parties try not to offend their traditional support but are you suggesting that the Tories like to keep 'poor' people poor for other reasons? I think you mean Labour there. Coming in for nearly a century of Labour dominance in the north, and look at the state of it. Labour need and thrive on a poverty-bound electorate - how else will they sell their fabled socialist utopia. Perhaps with promotional videos from their comrades in Venezuela?
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davenotamonkey

21 Apr 17 2.49pm

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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

What does that mean?
I can see that all parties try not to offend their traditional support but are you suggesting that the Tories like to keep 'poor' people poor for other reasons?

I think you mean Labour there. Coming in for nearly a century of Labour dominance in the north, and look at the state of it. Labour need and thrive on a poverty-bound electorate - how else will they sell their fabled socialist utopia. Perhaps with promotional videos from their comrades in Venezuela?

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Hrolf The Ganger 21 Apr 17 2.53pm
Originally posted by davenotamonkey I think you mean Labour there. Coming in for nearly a century of Labour dominance in the north, and look at the state of it. Labour need and thrive on a poverty-bound electorate - how else will they sell their fabled socialist utopia. Perhaps with promotional videos from their comrades in Venezuela? Exactly. And now that have ethnic minorities to pander to as well. Labour have a similar problem to UKIP. Now that a definition of poor is having a TV of less than 50 inches, who is poor enough to vote for the sorry bunch of hypocrites. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (21 Apr 2017 2.53pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

21 Apr 17 2.53pm

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Originally posted by davenotamonkey

I think you mean Labour there. Coming in for nearly a century of Labour dominance in the north, and look at the state of it. Labour need and thrive on a poverty-bound electorate - how else will they sell their fabled socialist utopia. Perhaps with promotional videos from their comrades in Venezuela?

Exactly. And now that have ethnic minorities to pander to as well.

Labour have a similar problem to UKIP. Now that a definition of poor is having a TV of less than 50 inches, who is poor enough to vote for the sorry bunch of hypocrites.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (21 Apr 2017 2.53pm)

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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 21 Apr 17 2.54pm
Originally posted by davenotamonkey So that would be a "no" then. All doom and gloom in your little echo chamber. Can't wait to see you proven wrong. Brexit is, and will be, the best thing that has happened to this country in decades. But do carry on howling at the moon. Where is your evidence to back this up? I was merely pointing out that the IMF stats you were trying to use had big caveats which you'd ignored. I was also pointing out that foreigners buying UK property is not inward investment. I'd be delighted to be proven wrong, however so far I've seen no proof whatsoever. I've offered numerous amounts of data and analysis to back up every point I've made but you seem to ignore the facts. I'd be genuinely interested to read some credible source to back up your claims.
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 21 Apr 17 2.54pm

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Originally posted by davenotamonkey

So that would be a "no" then. All doom and gloom in your little echo chamber.

Can't wait to see you proven wrong. Brexit is, and will be, the best thing that has happened to this country in decades. But do carry on howling at the moon.

Where is your evidence to back this up?

I was merely pointing out that the IMF stats you were trying to use had big caveats which you'd ignored.

I was also pointing out that foreigners buying UK property is not inward investment.

I'd be delighted to be proven wrong, however so far I've seen no proof whatsoever. I've offered numerous amounts of data and analysis to back up every point I've made but you seem to ignore the facts.

I'd be genuinely interested to read some credible source to back up your claims.

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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 21 Apr 17 2.58pm
Originally posted by davenotamonkey I think you mean Labour there. Coming in for nearly a century of Labour dominance in the north, and look at the state of it. Labour need and thrive on a poverty-bound electorate - how else will they sell their fabled socialist utopia. Perhaps with promotional videos from their comrades in Venezuela? Labour also dominate in London, one of the most successful cities in the world. Local bodies don't have the kind of power that would allow you to claim that areas where one particular party are strong have that particular party to thank or blame. If a Tory government is in power they make the decisions not the local Labour party and vice versa. It's not like in the North they had an option to avoid austerity and the Labour party in the North decided against it. I'd love to see some actual evidence to support something you say one day!
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 21 Apr 17 2.58pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Labour also dominate in London, one of the most successful cities in the world. Local bodies don't have the kind of power that would allow you to claim that areas where one particular party are strong have that particular party to thank or blame. If a Tory government is in power they make the decisions not the local Labour party and vice versa.

It's not like in the North they had an option to avoid austerity and the Labour party in the North decided against it.

I'd love to see some actual evidence to support something you say one day!

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 21 Apr 17 3.00pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Nick knows that all to well but he has Jeremy Corbyn's likeness tattooed on his arse. That's funny cos Nigel Farage has your arse tattooed on his face.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 21 Apr 17 3.00pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Nick knows that all to well but he has Jeremy Corbyn's likeness tattooed on his arse.

That's funny cos Nigel Farage has your arse tattooed on his face.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 21 Apr 17 3.06pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Indeed, but the question really is why isn't it, because those who benefit from the system, find that exploitation is beneficial to them - and its easier to exploit people if they're dependent on you, and in fear of their livehoods and economic stability. The problems of morality, is that people are not moral, part of the role of state has to be to regulate and control, in order to limit the extent of exploitation, and ensure the well being of all of its people - not just those who they identify with. The problem with capitalism is the same as with socialism, you can't rely on people to make the moral decision to 'do right' over their own self benefit and interest. That has to be what the state is there for. Edited by jamiemartin721 (21 Apr 2017 2.49pm) Did the states where most power was held by the state, eg: USSR, China, Cuba, Easter Europe, North Korea, Iraq etc, 'do right' by their people? Edited by hedgehog50 (21 Apr 2017 3.07pm) We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 21 Apr 17 3.06pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

The problem with capitalism is the same as with socialism, you can't rely on people to make the moral decision to 'do right' over their own self benefit and interest.

That has to be what the state is there for.

Edited by jamiemartin721 (21 Apr 2017 2.49pm)

Did the states where most power was held by the state, eg: USSR, China, Cuba, Easter Europe, North Korea, Iraq etc, 'do right' by their people?

Edited by hedgehog50 (21 Apr 2017 3.07pm)

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 21 Apr 17 3.09pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Did the states where most power was held by the state, eg: USSR, China, Cuba, Easter Europe, North Korea 'do right' by their people? Do you seriously think Corbyn is aiming to make the U.K like any of these?
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 21 Apr 17 3.09pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Did the states where most power was held by the state, eg: USSR, China, Cuba, Easter Europe, North Korea 'do right' by their people?

Do you seriously think Corbyn is aiming to make the U.K like any of these?

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Part Time James 21 Apr 17 3.09pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Do you seriously think Corbyn is aiming to make the U.K like any of these? I don't think he's honestly expecting to get much influence on the future of the UK at all.
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Part Time James

21 Apr 17 3.09pm

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Originally posted by nickgusset

Do you seriously think Corbyn is aiming to make the U.K like any of these?

I don't think he's honestly expecting to get much influence on the future of the UK at all.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 21 Apr 17 3.11pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Do you seriously think Corbyn is aiming to make the U.K like any of these? No, and I didn't say he was. I'm merely pointing out the tendency is that the more power a state has over its people, the more repressive it is - and socialism is all about state control. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 21 Apr 17 3.11pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Do you seriously think Corbyn is aiming to make the U.K like any of these?

No, and I didn't say he was. I'm merely pointing out the tendency is that the more power a state has over its people, the more repressive it is - and socialism is all about state control.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 21 Apr 17 3.12pm
Originally posted by Part Time James I don't think he's honestly expecting to get much influence on the future of the UK at all. Touche. But seriously I've seen tweets etc that say something on the lines of Corbyn will turn us into Soviet Russia. I think people actually believe that s***.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 21 Apr 17 3.12pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

I don't think he's honestly expecting to get much influence on the future of the UK at all.

Touche. But seriously I've seen tweets etc that say something on the lines of Corbyn will turn us into Soviet Russia.
I think people actually believe that s***.

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Part Time James 21 Apr 17 3.14pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Touche. But seriously I've seen tweets etc that say something on the lines of Corbyn will turn us into Soviet Russia. I think people actually believe that s***. All I hope is that Twitter and Facebook don't reflect the intelligence levels of my fellow human beings.
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Part Time James

21 Apr 17 3.14pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Touche. But seriously I've seen tweets etc that say something on the lines of Corbyn will turn us into Soviet Russia.
I think people actually believe that s***.

All I hope is that Twitter and Facebook don't reflect the intelligence levels of my fellow human beings.

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