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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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Stirlingsays 02 Nov 23 9.35am
Originally posted by Matov [Tweet Link] I see the war ending in a negotiation late 2024. As has been said on the thread many times this has been poor and costly policy and there are going to be a lot of shocked people....amid a hell of a lot of excuses. What people were sold and what the reality is were two separate worlds. The sheer number of lies, half truths and distortions that have been told goes against what the British should be about. Regardless, as with Iraq, as with Libya.....there will be no accountability for these disastrous decisions. If elites were actually paid on outcomes then many of them would be working shoeshine.....perhaps then we might actually start seeing meritocracy. Great making bank whatever the outcome isn't it. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Nov 2023 9.37am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

02 Nov 23 9.35am

Originally posted by Matov

[Tweet Link]

I see the war ending in a negotiation late 2024.

As has been said on the thread many times this has been poor and costly policy and there are going to be a lot of shocked people....amid a hell of a lot of excuses.

What people were sold and what the reality is were two separate worlds. The sheer number of lies, half truths and distortions that have been told goes against what the British should be about.

Regardless, as with Iraq, as with Libya.....there will be no accountability for these disastrous decisions.

If elites were actually paid on outcomes then many of them would be working shoeshine.....perhaps then we might actually start seeing meritocracy.

Great making bank whatever the outcome isn't it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Nov 2023 9.37am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Matov 02 Nov 23 10.38am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I see the war ending in a negotiation late 2024. As has been said on the thread many times this has been poor and costly policy and there are going to be a lot of shocked people....amid a hell of a lot of excuses. What people were sold and what the reality is were two separate worlds. The sheer number of lies, half truths and distortions that have been told goes against what the British should be about. Regardless, as with Iraq, as with Libya.....there will be no accountability for these disastrous decisions. If elites were actually paid on outcomes then many of them would be working shoeshine.....perhaps then we might actually start seeing meritocracy. Great making bank whatever the outcome isn't it. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Nov 2023 9.37am) History will not be kind. And I need to make it clear. There are no good guys in this. Just different shades of bad. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

02 Nov 23 10.38am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I see the war ending in a negotiation late 2024.

As has been said on the thread many times this has been poor and costly policy and there are going to be a lot of shocked people....amid a hell of a lot of excuses.

What people were sold and what the reality is were two separate worlds. The sheer number of lies, half truths and distortions that have been told goes against what the British should be about.

Regardless, as with Iraq, as with Libya.....there will be no accountability for these disastrous decisions.

If elites were actually paid on outcomes then many of them would be working shoeshine.....perhaps then we might actually start seeing meritocracy.

Great making bank whatever the outcome isn't it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Nov 2023 9.37am)

History will not be kind. And I need to make it clear. There are no good guys in this. Just different shades of bad.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Nov 23 11.33am
Originally posted by Matov History will not be kind. And I need to make it clear. There are no good guys in this. Just different shades of bad. For sure there will be criticism. There always is. The real question though is not whether things could have been done better, as they inevitably could have been with hindsight, but whether they could have been avoided. I don't believe they could. Aggression of this kind has to be resisted and those who resist it have to be supported. I too though don't believe this is a winnable war. So some kind of stalemate will lead to a brokered peace compromise. This will look like what Putin said was his objective at the beginning, thus enabling him to sell it as mission achieved at home. Of course what Putin said was his objective almost certainly wasn't. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 02 Nov 23 11.33am

Originally posted by Matov

History will not be kind. And I need to make it clear. There are no good guys in this. Just different shades of bad.

For sure there will be criticism. There always is. The real question though is not whether things could have been done better, as they inevitably could have been with hindsight, but whether they could have been avoided.

I don't believe they could. Aggression of this kind has to be resisted and those who resist it have to be supported.

I too though don't believe this is a winnable war. So some kind of stalemate will lead to a brokered peace compromise. This will look like what Putin said was his objective at the beginning, thus enabling him to sell it as mission achieved at home. Of course what Putin said was his objective almost certainly wasn't.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Goal Machine The Cronx 02 Nov 23 12.19pm
Originally posted by Matov [Tweet Link] Nothing new or surprising in there. You don't need to be rocket scientist to realise Ukraine are not likely to win back the land they have lost. What alternative did Ukraine have? Let Russia steamroll them before moving to the next country? The BBC documentary 'Living next door to Putin' gives a bit of flavour as to how feared Russia are in Eastern Europe. We're somewhat detached from it all over here. An acceptance of the loss of The Donbass and Crimea is probably the best outcome now to preserve life, but still very sad for the millions of Ukrainians who have been forced out. Time for the negotiating table and big wall.
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The Cronx 02 Nov 23 12.19pm

Originally posted by Matov

[Tweet Link]

Nothing new or surprising in there. You don't need to be rocket scientist to realise Ukraine are not likely to win back the land they have lost.

What alternative did Ukraine have? Let Russia steamroll them before moving to the next country?

The BBC documentary 'Living next door to Putin' gives a bit of flavour as to how feared Russia are in Eastern Europe. We're somewhat detached from it all over here.

An acceptance of the loss of The Donbass and Crimea is probably the best outcome now to preserve life, but still very sad for the millions of Ukrainians who have been forced out. Time for the negotiating table and big wall.

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Stirlingsays 02 Nov 23 2.38pm
Originally posted by Matov History will not be kind. And I need to make it clear. There are no good guys in this. Just different shades of bad. No good guys definitely. But a lot of people who can't play chess and recognise percentages. How this was going to go was stated a long time ago. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the ground who could have been avoided and we have to carry on with this madness for longer still. Hubris and incompetence, that our elites forced us to pay for....some of us never supported it and got called everything under the sun. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Nov 2023 6.08pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

02 Nov 23 2.38pm

Originally posted by Matov

History will not be kind. And I need to make it clear. There are no good guys in this. Just different shades of bad.

No good guys definitely.

But a lot of people who can't play chess and recognise percentages. How this was going to go was stated a long time ago.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the ground who could have been avoided and we have to carry on with this madness for longer still.

Hubris and incompetence, that our elites forced us to pay for....some of us never supported it and got called everything under the sun.

Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Nov 2023 6.08pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 03 Nov 23 8.02pm
Watching the coverage of Zelensky go from fated hero to diminishing coverage and creeping to outright criticism is a lesson in the nature of real world politics. Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan....the old saying meaning that many will seek credit for success but few, if any will accept responsibility for failure. While I regard Zelensky as corrupt, dishonest and disastrous it's fair to remember that he had to be convinced to not negotiate terms with Putin in March 21. Both Biden and Johnson and the whole neo con ra ra war brigade were determined to have their stand off war with Russia.....just as long as it wasn't them personally in the trenches (I exclude the brave men who went and fought in it, even if I disagreed with them they lived their principles). This war was always sentiment over reason......The most stupid avoidable war I've ever witnessed. The war in Israel/Palestine isn't avoidable....this one however I put down to the State department's miscalculations over Russia going back to the nineties. They should have listened to Farage and various other diplomatic policy wonks who predicted it all. Russia should be in Europe, not fighting it....and it could have happened. Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Nov 2023 9.57pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

03 Nov 23 8.02pm

Watching the coverage of Zelensky go from fated hero to diminishing coverage and creeping to outright criticism is a lesson in the nature of real world politics.

Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan....the old saying meaning that many will seek credit for success but few, if any will accept responsibility for failure.

While I regard Zelensky as corrupt, dishonest and disastrous it's fair to remember that he had to be convinced to not negotiate terms with Putin in March 21. Both Biden and Johnson and the whole neo con ra ra war brigade were determined to have their stand off war with Russia.....just as long as it wasn't them personally in the trenches (I exclude the brave men who went and fought in it, even if I disagreed with them they lived their principles).

This war was always sentiment over reason......The most stupid avoidable war I've ever witnessed.

The war in Israel/Palestine isn't avoidable....this one however I put down to the State department's miscalculations over Russia going back to the nineties.

They should have listened to Farage and various other diplomatic policy wonks who predicted it all.

Russia should be in Europe, not fighting it....and it could have happened.

Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Nov 2023 9.57pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 03 Nov 23 8.35pm
The idea that we should have listened to Farage over Russia made me laugh. About as sensible as listening to Trump on the subject. Especially when both were covertly supported in campaigns originating in Russia. The man’s only military experience was as an army cadet at school. He has no diplomatic experience. His track record on understanding Europe is not impressive either. To suggest that someone like him could be right, rather than the combined experience of the western allies, isn’t credible. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 03 Nov 23 8.35pm

The idea that we should have listened to Farage over Russia made me laugh. About as sensible as listening to Trump on the subject. Especially when both were covertly supported in campaigns originating in Russia.

The man’s only military experience was as an army cadet at school. He has no diplomatic experience. His track record on understanding Europe is not impressive either.

To suggest that someone like him could be right, rather than the combined experience of the western allies, isn’t credible.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays 03 Nov 23 9.38pm
It was hardly just Farage. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

03 Nov 23 9.38pm

It was hardly just Farage.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 03 Nov 23 10.04pm
There must be a few, other than Trump and Farage, who not only would have not supported Ukraine when Russia invaded, but also think we should be becoming closer to her. I haven’t heard any respected expert in this area suggesting this. Not while she is run by the kind of regime headed by Putin. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 03 Nov 23 10.04pm

There must be a few, other than Trump and Farage, who not only would have not supported Ukraine when Russia invaded, but also think we should be becoming closer to her. I haven’t heard any respected expert in this area suggesting this. Not while she is run by the kind of regime headed by Putin.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays 04 Nov 23 12.02am
Links were literally provided of a highly experienced diplomat giving a lecture on this very area years ago within this very thread. Maybe some people need to open their ears to the reality that this pathway was seriously argued against and that those predictions came to pass. As the Time article shows, the very people who put Zelensky on the front cover as their man of the year....now....to paraphrase his ridiculous waffle are using 'Putin's talking points'. Because apparently recognising reality and being against these choices was about being pro Putin.....If I may say so that was a commentary so irritatingly childish as to be like banging your head against a brick wall. Bidenese logic. Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2023 12.17am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

04 Nov 23 12.02am

Links were literally provided of a highly experienced diplomat giving a lecture on this very area years ago within this very thread.

Maybe some people need to open their ears to the reality that this pathway was seriously argued against and that those predictions came to pass.

As the Time article shows, the very people who put Zelensky on the front cover as their man of the year....now....to paraphrase his ridiculous waffle are using 'Putin's talking points'.

Because apparently recognising reality and being against these choices was about being pro Putin.....If I may say so that was a commentary so irritatingly childish as to be like banging your head against a brick wall.

Bidenese logic.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2023 12.17am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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