I would say that the societies that have succeeded in history and end up being admired have allowed the most freedoms and encourage meritocracy and have created high trust and competent institutions because of that .....we have seen that eroded over the last few decades.

Communism and its various forms never succeeded in creating a society that masses wanted to live under.

I think the principle reason for that lies at the heart of the left's problem....it's refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of normal human nature. When people are compelled to all believe the same things you essentially create a society that lies.

Instead of wishing to work with it there is a never ending striving to 'correct' it. To force people to be 'good', whatever that is....instead of creating inducements via meritocracy it enforces the myth of equality onto people.....it talks about better societies but ends up downgrading them and creating the fear to disagree.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Feb 2023 10.30pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

People are selfish by nature they want to do what's best for them and their family. Nobody wants to see someone else suffer and we all want the best for them just as long as somebody else pays for it (not that most people admit it).

If the people of this country really wanted a socialist utopia then they would vote for a party of high taxes and universal benefits like Scandinavia.

As the Labour party are continually at pains to point out that they don't believe in high taxes I assume they have done their market research and decided the voters are keen on paying 40% basic rate income tax.

Working for the collective good is a nice theory but it never works look at the hippy communes in the 1970's. I have seen several documentaries that interview people from that time they all say the same thing, the theory is great but too many people didn't pull their weight so eventually they fell apart.

One more point

In reply to Teddy.

No, that's not a fact, it's simply either what you believe or want to believe. There are many, many people who don't belong to your definition of 'we'.

'Not that most people admit it' - well, how scientific you are, Badge.

Do you play chess? I imagine your mind - reading skills would catapult you to world champion status. Lol.

Labour have a sense of entitlement to northern votes from the " working class ". When the Red Wall collapsed the Corbynista cohort, particularly Long-Bailey and her ilk, basically said the voters were too thick to understand what was good for them.

I agree Labour aren't very good, and neither are the Conservatives.

The problem is how get of out of the partisan political mess we are in. The first past the post system has IMO become unfit for purpose.

Perhaps coalitions would force a direction less steered by ideology.

All a bit depressing really, very little to choose between Labour and Conservative now.

The country has no more tax to give, the dog whistles of non dom status and " bankers " would do little in reality in terms of new revenue. Indeed, these assumptions assume the earnings all remain in UK to be taxed which is unlikely.

We need to look at non essential spending on vanity projects whether its a train line or a project to decolonise an author's work etc

We need a long spell of common sense in govt spending which I admit is very unlikely.

Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

Where did I say it's a fact? You are reading into something that I haven't stated.

It's my opinion other opinions are available but I would say in general it's how people feel. Why do we have "shy Tories" because some people don't like to admit that they vote for a party that others consider selfish.

One more point