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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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Stirlingsays 17 Sep 23 5.26pm
Originally posted by Mapletree You complained Ukraine has its media controlled whilst it's at war. Not before a war. During wars things change. During any major crisis for that matter. Sometimes that is what leaders have to do. In WW2 the UK was highly controlling. And during WW2 there was almost total support for the war. Especially once the atrocities became clear. I can agree with a certain amount of that up to a point.....The line between organic protest and politically funded subversion is a fair point...done by both sides and always valid to criticise. However, not being allowed to disagree with the war and be represented? No, I can't say I agree with that. That didn't happen in the US during the Vietnam war did it.....No doubt you agreed with that one. Or with the protests against the Iraq war. There is opposition in Ukraine, as there is in Russia and perhaps if both were allowed to express themselves then perhaps these wars would be less enabled and end far quicker. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

17 Sep 23 5.26pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

You complained Ukraine has its media controlled whilst it's at war. Not before a war. During wars things change. During any major crisis for that matter. Sometimes that is what leaders have to do. In WW2 the UK was highly controlling. And during WW2 there was almost total support for the war. Especially once the atrocities became clear.

I can agree with a certain amount of that up to a point.....The line between organic protest and politically funded subversion is a fair point...done by both sides and always valid to criticise.

However, not being allowed to disagree with the war and be represented? No, I can't say I agree with that.

That didn't happen in the US during the Vietnam war did it.....No doubt you agreed with that one. Or with the protests against the Iraq war.

There is opposition in Ukraine, as there is in Russia and perhaps if both were allowed to express themselves then perhaps these wars would be less enabled and end far quicker.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Pinkfluff1981 17 Sep 23 7.26pm
Putin is a bully and quite frankly Russia in general before putin have been bullies. If for one second the rest of Europe or US was in danger do you really think we wouldn’t kick ass and take him out? Is an inconvenience to the world at the moment but the minute he gets serious he’ll get ruined . This day an age nato would ruin Russia . Christ Ukraine have been doing pretty well on their own . Full scale war whos he got ? North Korea and china ? Oh wait we’re f***ed .
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Pinkfluff1981

17 Sep 23 7.26pm

Putin is a bully and quite frankly Russia in general before putin have been bullies. If for one second the rest of Europe or US was in danger do you really think we wouldn’t kick ass and take him out? Is an inconvenience to the world at the moment but the minute he gets serious he’ll get ruined . This day an age nato would ruin Russia . Christ Ukraine have been doing pretty well on their own . Full scale war whos he got ? North Korea and china ? Oh wait we’re f***ed .

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Mapletree Croydon 17 Sep 23 10.21pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I can agree with a certain amount of that up to a point.....The line between organic protest and politically funded subversion is a fair point...done by both sides and always valid to criticise. However, not being allowed to disagree with the war and be represented? No, I can't say I agree with that. That didn't happen in the US during the Vietnam war did it.....No doubt you agreed with that one. Or with the protests against the Iraq war. There is opposition in Ukraine, as there is in Russia and perhaps if both were allowed to express themselves then perhaps these wars would be less enabled and end far quicker. Did north Vietnam invade America? Was it literally fighting for its independence and survival? A lot of the opposition in Ukraine was planted, both recently and in the past, by a Russia greedy for economic gain. Had you been in Vilnius with me in 1993 as the last Russian soldiers were leaving you would be seeing a different picture now. [Link]
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Mapletree

Croydon 17 Sep 23 10.21pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I can agree with a certain amount of that up to a point.....The line between organic protest and politically funded subversion is a fair point...done by both sides and always valid to criticise.

However, not being allowed to disagree with the war and be represented? No, I can't say I agree with that.

That didn't happen in the US during the Vietnam war did it.....No doubt you agreed with that one. Or with the protests against the Iraq war.

There is opposition in Ukraine, as there is in Russia and perhaps if both were allowed to express themselves then perhaps these wars would be less enabled and end far quicker.

Did north Vietnam invade America? Was it literally fighting for its independence and survival?

A lot of the opposition in Ukraine was planted, both recently and in the past, by a Russia greedy for economic gain.

Had you been in Vilnius with me in 1993 as the last Russian soldiers were leaving you would be seeing a different picture now.

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 17 Sep 23 11.10pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Did north Vietnam invade America? Was it literally fighting for its independence and survival? Errrr....I'm sorry are we debating the morality or not of the Vietnam war? In reality a highly complicated question in my view. Anyway the point being made is that the American administration allowed protest and opposition parties to oppose the war.....This is hardly an isolated point. As for your contention that Vietnam was fighting for its independence and survival I regard that as a highly selective viewpoint as the reality was that it were the communists (not western champagne ones)...mainly in the north who were fighting for their vision of Vietnam.....while in the South they very much did not want that and fought alongside the French and later Americans. Indeed, while very different, some parallels with Ukraine are not lost on me. Originally posted by Mapletree A lot of the opposition in Ukraine was planted, both recently and in the past, by a Russia greedy for economic gain. Are you having a laugh or something? I get called a 'conspiracy theorist' for making that very same point....something that is practically a no brainer. I even made that point to you earlier in the thread, that a lot of protest isn't organic but is funded by either Russia or by the US.....Intelligence services are all over this war and the amount of underhand interference is at absurd levels. However when I make the obvious point that the US fingerprints are all over the overthrow in 2014 suddenly no one gives a monkey's.....So while I agree with you that Russia fund and interfere....I'll make the point that you're using a one way mirror as the Americans just use bigger brown envelopes. Also, if you are suggesting that the 12 million Russian speakers in the south and east....many of which consistently voted for pro Russian options in elections were plants....I think I'll ask you to be realistic. Sure, most of them wouldn't have wanted this war but significant opposition willing to fight was there in 2014. You know ethnic Russians have been there for hundreds of years....Even Zelensky's first language is Russian. This proxy war never needed to happen and it's a disaster for everyone. Originally posted by Mapletree Had you been in Vilnius with me in 1993 as the last Russian soldiers were leaving you would be seeing a different picture now. [Link] Indeed, if the early nineties had had different decisions taken on Russia a lot of things would be different.....but your lovely neo liberals fecked up and here we are. Anyway I'm surprised you had time to be in Vilnius, what with all the Milk Tray adverts you were starring in at the time. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Sep 2023 11.14pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

17 Sep 23 11.10pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Did north Vietnam invade America? Was it literally fighting for its independence and survival?

Errrr....I'm sorry are we debating the morality or not of the Vietnam war? In reality a highly complicated question in my view.

Anyway the point being made is that the American administration allowed protest and opposition parties to oppose the war.....This is hardly an isolated point.

As for your contention that Vietnam was fighting for its independence and survival I regard that as a highly selective viewpoint as the reality was that it were the communists (not western champagne ones)...mainly in the north who were fighting for their vision of Vietnam.....while in the South they very much did not want that and fought alongside the French and later Americans. Indeed, while very different, some parallels with Ukraine are not lost on me.

Originally posted by Mapletree

A lot of the opposition in Ukraine was planted, both recently and in the past, by a Russia greedy for economic gain.

Are you having a laugh or something?

I get called a 'conspiracy theorist' for making that very same point....something that is practically a no brainer.

I even made that point to you earlier in the thread, that a lot of protest isn't organic but is funded by either Russia or by the US.....Intelligence services are all over this war and the amount of underhand interference is at absurd levels.

However when I make the obvious point that the US fingerprints are all over the overthrow in 2014 suddenly no one gives a monkey's.....So while I agree with you that Russia fund and interfere....I'll make the point that you're using a one way mirror as the Americans just use bigger brown envelopes.

Also, if you are suggesting that the 12 million Russian speakers in the south and east....many of which consistently voted for pro Russian options in elections were plants....I think I'll ask you to be realistic. Sure, most of them wouldn't have wanted this war but significant opposition willing to fight was there in 2014. You know ethnic Russians have been there for hundreds of years....Even Zelensky's first language is Russian.

This proxy war never needed to happen and it's a disaster for everyone.

Originally posted by Mapletree

Had you been in Vilnius with me in 1993 as the last Russian soldiers were leaving you would be seeing a different picture now.

[Link]

Indeed, if the early nineties had had different decisions taken on Russia a lot of things would be different.....but your lovely neo liberals fecked up and here we are.

Anyway I'm surprised you had time to be in Vilnius, what with all the Milk Tray adverts you were starring in at the time.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Sep 2023 11.14pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Mapletree Croydon 18 Sep 23 11.08pm
I didn’t contend North Vietnam was fighting for its survival. I pointed out through irony that America was not and as such it did not have to totally shut down any dissent. Which it would certainly have done had it been fighting an existential war
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Mapletree

Croydon 18 Sep 23 11.08pm

I didn’t contend North Vietnam was fighting for its survival. I pointed out through irony that America was not and as such it did not have to totally shut down any dissent. Which it would certainly have done had it been fighting an existential war

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Stirlingsays 18 Sep 23 11.43pm
Originally posted by Mapletree I didn’t contend North Vietnam was fighting for its survival. I pointed out through irony that America was not and as such it did not have to totally shut down any dissent. Which it would certainly have done had it been fighting an existential war North Vietnam wasn't going to cease to exist, we are talking about regimes at war. That's what is existential: their regimes. However, I'll concede the point that foreign fought wars result in less freedom suppression in democracies. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Sep 2023 12.31am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

18 Sep 23 11.43pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

North Vietnam wasn't going to cease to exist, we are talking about regimes at war. That's what is existential: their regimes.

However, I'll concede the point that foreign fought wars result in less freedom suppression in democracies.

Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Sep 2023 12.31am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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HeathMan Purley 20 Sep 23 8.04am
I can recommend watching "Living next door to Putin" available on BBC i player. Slight challenge to find as part one broadcast on BBC 2 and part two broadcast on BBC1. Each part is one hour.
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HeathMan

Purley 20 Sep 23 8.04am

I can recommend watching "Living next door to Putin" available on BBC i player. Slight challenge to find as part one broadcast on BBC 2 and part two broadcast on BBC1. Each part is one hour.

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Stirlingsays 21 Sep 23 5.45pm
The most stupid war I've seen the west engage in just continues to rumble on. Tranny news presenters with kill lists. [Tweet Link] 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

21 Sep 23 5.45pm

The most stupid war I've seen the west engage in just continues to rumble on. Tranny news presenters with kill lists.

[Tweet Link]

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 6.52pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 The West to blame here. The Nasty Aggressive Threatening Organisation - NATO. Hysterical media spoon-fed by warmongering politicians. Putin is not actually asking for much. Withdrawal of NATO forces from their border. Russia wants NATO off their backs, actually don't we? We should end all sanctions and get Russia back into the G8. What's worse accepting Ukraines request to join NATO and Putin invading or Declining Ukraine request to join NATO and Putin invading. Your post assumes that bending over to Putin at this point and blowing kisses will result in peace and harmony. That's a big assumption to make, and I'm not sure history backs that up. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 6.52pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

The West to blame here.

The Nasty Aggressive Threatening Organisation - NATO.

Hysterical media spoon-fed by warmongering politicians.

Putin is not actually asking for much.

Withdrawal of NATO forces from their border.

Russia wants NATO off their backs, actually don't we?

We should end all sanctions and get Russia back into the G8.

What's worse

accepting Ukraines request to join NATO and Putin invading

Declining Ukraine request to join NATO and Putin invading.

Your post assumes that bending over to Putin at this point and blowing kisses will result in peace and harmony. That's a big assumption to make, and I'm not sure history backs that up.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Matov 21 Sep 23 7.14pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays The most stupid war I've seen the west engage in just continues to rumble on. Tranny news presenters with kill lists. [Tweet Link] Literal evil. It appears to have actually falling out of favour in the last few days with the Ukranian regime and has been suspended. Some Russian social media sites seem to be even saying it might be locked up but not seen that verified. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

21 Sep 23 7.14pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The most stupid war I've seen the west engage in just continues to rumble on. Tranny news presenters with kill lists.

[Tweet Link]

Literal evil.

It appears to have actually falling out of favour in the last few days with the Ukranian regime and has been suspended. Some Russian social media sites seem to be even saying it might be locked up but not seen that verified.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Stirlingsays 21 Sep 23 8.28pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC What's worse accepting Ukraines request to join NATO and Putin invading or Declining Ukraine request to join NATO and Putin invading. Your post assumes that bending over to Putin at this point and blowing kisses will result in peace and harmony. That's a big assumption to make, and I'm not sure history backs that up. Well, personally I think Steely is right.....then again he wrote that back at the start and he seemed to flip on it....Don't know what he thinks now. Anyway what is the advantage to the west of Ukraine in NATO? A practical resolution to the Ukraine war and Russia eventually back in the G8 and working against a Russian/China BRICS v Western competitive world is just common sense. Not that I agree with the policy but once the war is finished you're probably going to get a North/South Korea like dividing line.....At that point no doubt they will find a way of putting Ukraine in Nato. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2023 8.39pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

21 Sep 23 8.28pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

What's worse

accepting Ukraines request to join NATO and Putin invading

Declining Ukraine request to join NATO and Putin invading.

Your post assumes that bending over to Putin at this point and blowing kisses will result in peace and harmony. That's a big assumption to make, and I'm not sure history backs that up.

Well, personally I think Steely is right.....then again he wrote that back at the start and he seemed to flip on it....Don't know what he thinks now.

Anyway what is the advantage to the west of Ukraine in NATO?

A practical resolution to the Ukraine war and Russia eventually back in the G8 and working against a Russian/China BRICS v Western competitive world is just common sense.

Not that I agree with the policy but once the war is finished you're probably going to get a North/South Korea like dividing line.....At that point no doubt they will find a way of putting Ukraine in Nato.

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2023 8.39pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steeleye20 Croydon 21 Sep 23 9.45pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC What's worse accepting Ukraines request to join NATO and Putin invading or Declining Ukraine request to join NATO and Putin invading. Your post assumes that bending over to Putin at this point and blowing kisses will result in peace and harmony. That's a big assumption to make, and I'm not sure history backs that up. Crumbs that's so long ago and was my view but then Putin invaded thinking his slavic brothers would support him how could he be so absurdly wrong. If it could have stopped there with them gaining the Russian speaking territory with a solution based on Minsk but it looks pie in the sky now. A tragic conflict with no apparent end no talks no hope.
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steeleye20

Croydon 21 Sep 23 9.45pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

What's worse

accepting Ukraines request to join NATO and Putin invading

Declining Ukraine request to join NATO and Putin invading.

Your post assumes that bending over to Putin at this point and blowing kisses will result in peace and harmony. That's a big assumption to make, and I'm not sure history backs that up.

Crumbs that's so long ago and was my view but then Putin invaded thinking his slavic brothers would support him how could he be so absurdly wrong.

If it could have stopped there with them gaining the Russian speaking territory with a solution based on Minsk but it looks pie in the sky now.

A tragic conflict with no apparent end no talks no hope.

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