Ukraine didn't care about democracy before this war anymore than Russia did. It overthrew a democratically elected government in 2014 and Zelensky has suspended elections until after the war.

Any newspapers or political parties that don't support continuing the war are banned.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Once again, Ukraine overthrew a democratically elected government not just a PM. Something they did with complete western approval and highly likely was funded to that tune.

The point is that this 'democracy' stuff that gets floated around about Ukraine is just fantasy compared to the hard reality of what happened and what is happening.

Liz Truss was the pick of the party that won the election....Am I comfortable with leaders elected this way....No, and I have said so...I didn't like it with Brown, Truss or Sunak. It is what it is.

Fan of Churchill are you? WW2 was carried out with very little public support for war. Which is of course one of the lies of democracy....that most of what happens is the will of the people rather than predefined routes created by elites.

Back to Ukraine: The vote in 2019 was obviously excluding the areas that Russia had taken and isn't a serious comeback to how Zelensky is viewed.

Also, let it not be forgotten that Zelensky was elected on a message of peace with Russia, so he would have gotten votes that hoped he could bring peace. Instead of negotiating with Russia Zelensky just became a puppet for whatever the Americans wanted....zero neutrality.

I couldn't give a damn what Putin wants or what Zelensky wants or what you think someone should think.

You want a war to continue until one side is defeated.

I want it to stop to save wasted lives in a conflict which condemns Ukraine to continual poverty and client control and Europe to yet another significant cost and risk of nuclear conflict amid world economic division.....All for zero gain.

That's all your neo liberals know how to do.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Sep 2023 12.33am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Have you even considered the sums? Donbas AND Crimea voting would not have changed the outcome regardless. Just as a reminder, Russia invaded Ukraine. Ask an Estonian, Pole or Moldovan what they think

The point being that Zelensky didn't win an election that included the significant proportion of Ukraine that is pro Russian. There's a lot that can be said here but I'll leave it at that. Whether he would have won or not will always be a projection.

Sure, Russia invaded Ukraine....Never supported it. Just like I never supported how we got to that situation....but that's all in the thread.

As for ask an Estonian....I'm not a globalist like yourself. Ask an Estonian if they want alphabet ideology forced on them by the EU....You don't care about that do you, but suddenly their opinion on Russia matters?

Once again, democracy lies when it pretends to enact the will of the people....It enacts predefined routes decided upon by its elites. I could reel out of a series of majority public positions that have never been carried out from immigration to the death penalty.

I know little about it but from what I heard probably the only democratic system worth the name is being run by the Swiss.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Democracy has many hats, depending on the occasion.
The Russian invasion had a useful trigger mechanism of Ukraine wanting to join NATO. And maybe later, Europe.
Look how f-cked up these organisations are when there's a crisis
and all the time populations are spoon-fed untruths by Governments and media.

I disengage, I turn the page.

You complained Ukraine has its media controlled whilst it's at war. Not before a war. During wars things change. During any major crisis for that matter. Sometimes that is what leaders have to do. In WW2 the UK was highly controlling. And during WW2 there was almost total support for the war. Especially once the atrocities became clear.