When this conflict started I made the point that both Napoleon and Hitler had come a cropper after early successes against Russia because no matter how incompetent Russian forces are they simply overwhelm you in the end with their massive resources.

My opinion hasn't changed, the Russian are prepared to accept massive losses that no western country would put up with.

One more point

Nothing in that to disagree with outside of the comment about the reporting. There is plenty of 'reporting' but it is beyond ludicrous. Almost zero attempt to try and portray the actual nuances of what the situation is, and has been, in Eastern Ukraine for well over a decade now.

I have a family member, heavily invested in the Ukranian side of things, having been on the ground as part of an aid organisation. We disagree on many issues around this conflict but the one thing he does tell me is that what he has seen and experienced over there, bears very little resemblance to how it is reported in the West.

Throw in how RT was banned almost straight away and I cannot recollect ever seeing so much one-sided reporting in my life. I was under no illusions about the MSM before this tawdry conflict but now, just see it primarily as pure propaganda. Whatever the outcome, the notion of us somehow enjoying a moral superiority around the West championing a 'free press' is simply not sustainable anymore.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

I meant old school war correspondant reporting rather then the clickbait stuff we get, oh look theres some drone footage of a russian tank being blown up, and how the ukraine air defence seem to shoot down 95% of missles being fired at them.
It is definite sanitised one sided reporting, for the tiktok generation.

Sometimes I set out for Ludlow
Sometimes I end up in Chepstow

I get that is one possible outcome. But sending cluster bombs is treading on thin moral ground. All weapons kill/maim, i get that. But cluster bombs have inherent faults which make civilian casualties much more likely.
If over 100 countries have banned them, then the next question is :why is the USA still making them ? and why is appropriate to give ship-loads to Ukraine. ?

I disengage, I turn the page.

Pretty much.

People actually believe that what they get told is the truth, whereas when you dig deeper it's actually the same as everything the media does.....it's a narrative, it's not lies as such, they just present the situation in a way that fits their narrative...but omitting anything that muddies or counters it....the only time the issues are raised is for them denying or demonising them.

Ironically, it's very Soviet or China like....which is the direction we are heading in.

We live in a time where most don't really care, it's just about winning for them....they don't really care much above that.

If you raise any issue you're suddenly a Putin fan.....when Russia do exactly the same thing in their media. Russia are not the good guys, Russia are operating in their own interests....and that isn't ours.

We operate in the US neo con's interests.

There are no good guys in this war and hundreds of thousands of people have died thinking that they were on a good side when in truth they were lied to.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jul 2023 7.06pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

NATO has just committed another 300,000 troops to the eastern flank pushing the number of troops to over 1 million.

Not really sure how sustainable that is, UK armed forces certainly doesn't have much to spare

The mountains are calling & I must go.