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Penge Eagle Beckenham 14 May 14 3.27pm
White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade.
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 14 May 14 3.27pm

White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade.

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The White Horse 14 May 14 3.28pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.27pm White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade. I do live in a market town. "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

14 May 14 3.28pm

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Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.27pm

White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade.

I do live in a market town.

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 14 May 14 3.40pm
Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 3.28pm Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.27pm White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade. I do live in a market town. I can picture you as a wealthy land owner with eastern Europeans picking your crops for under the minimum wage.
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 14 May 14 3.40pm

Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 3.28pm

Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.27pm

White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade.

I do live in a market town.

I can picture you as a wealthy land owner with eastern Europeans picking your crops for under the minimum wage.

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The White Horse 14 May 14 4.16pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 14 May 2014 2.15pm To avoid it turning into an absolute waffle-fest, I'll concentrate my reply on just the points above. I think we actually broadly agree. We differ essentially only on one point. You think it "unlikely that an "external culture" would be able to affect the original culture profoundly". I disagree. To borrow your melting pot analogy, I see the recent wave of immigration (ie, all the Eastern Europeans) if it continues at a similar pace as much more than a few extra ingredients. I think it will completely change the recipe. I'm not claiming certainty, but I do think it likely given the scale over the last few years and the changes which have already happened in a relatively short space of time. I've yet to see anything which convinces me otherwise. I think AT BEST the politicians who unleashed this wave of immigration have simply no idea what the long-term effects will be. I therefore think it likely that the prevailing culture will be radically altered and many things which are "traditionally British" (I know this is an incredibly slippery term to use, but I don't want to get bogged down in long definitions) will disappear or alter beyond recognition. I think that's fairly speculative and doesn't culture essentially operate on a supply and demand basis? If Morris dancing is part of the traditional culture, it will be maintained only if there's a demand for it. Likewise if there are elements that disappear, that's not likely to be because the immigrants didn't care about it, more likely that non-immigrants couldn't be bothered to keep it going. I'd argue that immigration has been going on for decades in the eyes of those alive today and yet there are few examples of culture that has died. Things have been added (curry being the most obvious example) but I don't think many elements of British culture have been mourned. Quote Johnny Eagles at 14 May 2014 2.15pm Which isn't to foretell doom, necessarily. He he who rejects change is the architect of decay and all that. And I love a curry as much as the next person. But it will be sad to see some things go. And, most importantly, it's absolutely fair enough for some people to be concerned and even angry about it. It's going to have a massive effect on them and their children and they've not been given any choice in the matter whatsoever. I don't think politics should be the realm at which the parameters of culture should be defined, I think that culture should be an accidental product of society. If you want something cultural to survive, then promote it, simple as that. Speaking as a white (notionally) Christian middle class man, many facets of culture simply don't appeal to me, British or otherwise. I find this odd, since I'm kind of the target group for it. But if I don't give a toss about St George's Day or Morris dancing or whatever, I fail to see the harm on an individual level. If as an individual I ought to be contributing to the common good, I can't say I'm particularly fond of the common good being "culture", since I value far more tangible things like education, healthcare, jobs, housing and so on. If I thought immigration was a threat to these things, it might bother me, but I'm not going to lose any sleep at night over "culture". "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

14 May 14 4.16pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 14 May 2014 2.15pm

To avoid it turning into an absolute waffle-fest, I'll concentrate my reply on just the points above.

I think we actually broadly agree. We differ essentially only on one point. You think it "unlikely that an "external culture" would be able to affect the original culture profoundly". I disagree.

To borrow your melting pot analogy, I see the recent wave of immigration (ie, all the Eastern Europeans) if it continues at a similar pace as much more than a few extra ingredients. I think it will completely change the recipe.

I'm not claiming certainty, but I do think it likely given the scale over the last few years and the changes which have already happened in a relatively short space of time. I've yet to see anything which convinces me otherwise. I think AT BEST the politicians who unleashed this wave of immigration have simply no idea what the long-term effects will be.

I therefore think it likely that the prevailing culture will be radically altered and many things which are "traditionally British" (I know this is an incredibly slippery term to use, but I don't want to get bogged down in long definitions) will disappear or alter beyond recognition.

I think that's fairly speculative and doesn't culture essentially operate on a supply and demand basis? If Morris dancing is part of the traditional culture, it will be maintained only if there's a demand for it.

Likewise if there are elements that disappear, that's not likely to be because the immigrants didn't care about it, more likely that non-immigrants couldn't be bothered to keep it going.

I'd argue that immigration has been going on for decades in the eyes of those alive today and yet there are few examples of culture that has died. Things have been added (curry being the most obvious example) but I don't think many elements of British culture have been mourned.

Quote Johnny Eagles at 14 May 2014 2.15pm

Which isn't to foretell doom, necessarily. He he who rejects change is the architect of decay and all that. And I love a curry as much as the next person. But it will be sad to see some things go. And, most importantly, it's absolutely fair enough for some people to be concerned and even angry about it. It's going to have a massive effect on them and their children and they've not been given any choice in the matter whatsoever.

I don't think politics should be the realm at which the parameters of culture should be defined, I think that culture should be an accidental product of society. If you want something cultural to survive, then promote it, simple as that.

Speaking as a white (notionally) Christian middle class man, many facets of culture simply don't appeal to me, British or otherwise. I find this odd, since I'm kind of the target group for it. But if I don't give a toss about St George's Day or Morris dancing or whatever, I fail to see the harm on an individual level.

If as an individual I ought to be contributing to the common good, I can't say I'm particularly fond of the common good being "culture", since I value far more tangible things like education, healthcare, jobs, housing and so on. If I thought immigration was a threat to these things, it might bother me, but I'm not going to lose any sleep at night over "culture".

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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The White Horse 14 May 14 4.41pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.40pm Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 3.28pm Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.27pm White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade. I do live in a market town. I can picture you as a wealthy land owner with eastern Europeans picking your crops for under the minimum wage. I would if I could, but UKIP are paying them all to deliver leaflets. I think the stereotype of politicians living away from high immigration areas is a myth. Many live in London and it's unusual to find an MP who lives somewhere properly rural. They might be a bit richer and live in the suburbs, but I daresay if you compared their life experience with that of an average member of the public, they'd probably be in 'mixed communities' just as often. "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

14 May 14 4.41pm

Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.40pm

Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 3.28pm

Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.27pm

White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade.

I do live in a market town.

I can picture you as a wealthy land owner with eastern Europeans picking your crops for under the minimum wage.

I would if I could, but UKIP are paying them all to deliver leaflets.

I think the stereotype of politicians living away from high immigration areas is a myth. Many live in London and it's unusual to find an MP who lives somewhere properly rural. They might be a bit richer and live in the suburbs, but I daresay if you compared their life experience with that of an average member of the public, they'd probably be in 'mixed communities' just as often.

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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Stirlingsays 14 May 14 6.12pm
Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 4.41pm Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.40pm Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 3.28pm Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.27pm White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade. I do live in a market town. I can picture you as a wealthy land owner with eastern Europeans picking your crops for under the minimum wage. I would if I could, but UKIP are paying them all to deliver leaflets. I think the stereotype of politicians living away from high immigration areas is a myth. Many live in London and it's unusual to find an MP who lives somewhere properly rural. They might be a bit richer and live in the suburbs, but I daresay if you compared their life experience with that of an average member of the public, they'd probably be in 'mixed communities' just as often. Myth is it? It's about the wealth of the area you're living in...That's obvious. Which MPs are living door to door with people who don't speak their language? It isn't until you live it that you really know....If you're still pro high levels of immigration after that....Well fair enough...Some are....But many don't really know what they are talking when they put out their teenager idealism. Even within London you can live deep within your own bubble. If you have the means. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 May 2014 6.14pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 May 14 6.12pm

Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 4.41pm

Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.40pm

Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 3.28pm

Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.27pm

White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade.

I do live in a market town.

I can picture you as a wealthy land owner with eastern Europeans picking your crops for under the minimum wage.

I would if I could, but UKIP are paying them all to deliver leaflets.

Myth is it?

It's about the wealth of the area you're living in...That's obvious.

Which MPs are living door to door with people who don't speak their language?

It isn't until you live it that you really know....If you're still pro high levels of immigration after that....Well fair enough...Some are....But many don't really know what they are talking when they put out their teenager idealism.

Even within London you can live deep within your own bubble.

If you have the means.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 May 2014 6.14pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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The White Horse 14 May 14 7.20pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 14 May 2014 6.12pm Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 4.41pm Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.40pm Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 3.28pm Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.27pm White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade. I do live in a market town. I can picture you as a wealthy land owner with eastern Europeans picking your crops for under the minimum wage. I would if I could, but UKIP are paying them all to deliver leaflets. I think the stereotype of politicians living away from high immigration areas is a myth. Many live in London and it's unusual to find an MP who lives somewhere properly rural. They might be a bit richer and live in the suburbs, but I daresay if you compared their life experience with that of an average member of the public, they'd probably be in 'mixed communities' just as often. Myth is it? It's about the wealth of the area you're living in...That's obvious. Which MPs are living door to door with people who don't speak their language? It isn't until you live it that you really know....If you're still pro high levels of immigration after that....Well fair enough...Some are....But many don't really know what they are talking when they put out their teenager idealism. Even within London you can live deep within your own bubble. If you have the means. I think if you look at where MPs actually live, you'd be surprised. Of the 5 different MPs that have represented me in the last decade, the 2 Labour MPs both lived in areas where immigration was far above average. Presumably they've been more pro-immigrant than the Tories who have been living in overwhelmingly unaffected constituencies? I just can't see the relationship myself. If anything, MPs who live in the urban areas most affected are more likely to be pro-immigrant. Look at Boris Johnson too. Represents the most diverse city in the country in terms of different groups of immigrants and yet he's very pro-immigrant for a tory. "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

14 May 14 7.20pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 14 May 2014 6.12pm

Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 4.41pm

Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.40pm

Quote The White Horse at 14 May 2014 3.28pm

Quote Penge Eagle at 14 May 2014 3.27pm

White Horse's view might be different if he lived in a market town or worked in the building trade.

I do live in a market town.

I can picture you as a wealthy land owner with eastern Europeans picking your crops for under the minimum wage.

I would if I could, but UKIP are paying them all to deliver leaflets.

Myth is it?

It's about the wealth of the area you're living in...That's obvious.

Which MPs are living door to door with people who don't speak their language?

Even within London you can live deep within your own bubble.

If you have the means.

I think if you look at where MPs actually live, you'd be surprised. Of the 5 different MPs that have represented me in the last decade, the 2 Labour MPs both lived in areas where immigration was far above average. Presumably they've been more pro-immigrant than the Tories who have been living in overwhelmingly unaffected constituencies?

I just can't see the relationship myself. If anything, MPs who live in the urban areas most affected are more likely to be pro-immigrant. Look at Boris Johnson too. Represents the most diverse city in the country in terms of different groups of immigrants and yet he's very pro-immigrant for a tory.

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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redpalace91 Bromley 14 May 14 7.52pm
Quote Kermit8 at 14 May 2014 11.03am Prominent member of H.... I mean UKIP... Youth resigns due to party's 'racist populism'. [Link] This story made me laugh because firstly she isn't prominent. She only joined Ukip originally to boost her own self-image - it was a desperate attempt at fame. She had this planned for a while and was looking for the perfect moment to leave. This is not a news worthy story.
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redpalace91

Bromley 14 May 14 7.52pm

Quote Kermit8 at 14 May 2014 11.03am

Prominent member of H.... I mean UKIP... Youth resigns due to party's 'racist populism'.

[Link]

This story made me laugh because firstly she isn't prominent. She only joined Ukip originally to boost her own self-image - it was a desperate attempt at fame. She had this planned for a while and was looking for the perfect moment to leave. This is not a news worthy story.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 14 May 14 9.19pm
For whitehorse and Johnny [Link] Got graphs and everythink.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 14 May 14 9.19pm

For whitehorse and Johnny [Link]

Got graphs and everythink.

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TUX redhill 14 May 14 9.55pm
@ White Horse You seriously believe that an MP who happens to live in an area full of immigrants (it's hard not too in any area around London!) is truly affected in any way? Sharing a postcode doesn't mean the same life let alone the same chances in life.
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TUX

redhill 14 May 14 9.55pm

@ White Horse

You seriously believe that an MP who happens to live in an area full of immigrants (it's hard not too in any area around London!) is truly affected in any way?

Sharing a postcode doesn't mean the same life let alone the same chances in life.

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The White Horse 14 May 14 10.46pm
Quote TUX at 14 May 2014 9.55pm @ White Horse You seriously believe that an MP who happens to live in an area full of immigrants (it's hard not too in any area around London!) is truly affected in any way? Sharing a postcode doesn't mean the same life let alone the same chances in life. I think if they live in an immigrant heavy area, their experience will be similar to a significant number of the electorate. I'm not saying it's quite the same as being a British plumber or whatever, I'm just suggesting that it's not completely at odds with the experiences of "ordinary people". I think one of the biggest problems in politics is politicians not sharing life experiences with members of their electorate, but I'd argue there are many areas where the gap is far bigger than the experience of immigration. "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

14 May 14 10.46pm

Quote TUX at 14 May 2014 9.55pm

@ White Horse

You seriously believe that an MP who happens to live in an area full of immigrants (it's hard not too in any area around London!) is truly affected in any way?

Sharing a postcode doesn't mean the same life let alone the same chances in life.

I think if they live in an immigrant heavy area, their experience will be similar to a significant number of the electorate. I'm not saying it's quite the same as being a British plumber or whatever, I'm just suggesting that it's not completely at odds with the experiences of "ordinary people".

I think one of the biggest problems in politics is politicians not sharing life experiences with members of their electorate, but I'd argue there are many areas where the gap is far bigger than the experience of immigration.

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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SloveniaDave Tirana, Albania 14 May 14 11.01pm
UKIP are polling between 11 and 15% in national surveys. The fact that they may well 'win' the Euro elections, in terms of being the largest single party, suggests that they will get around 30% of the vote in that election. Part of that is because of general voter apathy from supporters of the traditional parties and the rest is a protest vote against the EU. They remain a single issue party, or possibly a 2 issue party (Europe and immigration) but they will never become a significant player at the national level. The most they can aspire to is as a spoiling party, but even then it is unclear whether they will spoil labour or conservative chances at the next election. Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)
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SloveniaDave

Tirana, Albania 14 May 14 11.01pm

UKIP are polling between 11 and 15% in national surveys. The fact that they may well 'win' the Euro elections, in terms of being the largest single party, suggests that they will get around 30% of the vote in that election.

Part of that is because of general voter apathy from supporters of the traditional parties and the rest is a protest vote against the EU.

They remain a single issue party, or possibly a 2 issue party (Europe and immigration) but they will never become a significant player at the national level. The most they can aspire to is as a spoiling party, but even then it is unclear whether they will spoil labour or conservative chances at the next election.

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

(Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)

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