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 Stirlingsays  25 Aug 17 10.54pm |
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Originally posted by wordup
I'm off out so I can't really get too caught up in this, which probably isn't a bad thing! I hope you continue to contribute. Nothing wrong with throwing in your view. Seeing the opposite side of an debate is vital. We all benefit from being outside our echo chambers.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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It was the trump thread the other day. Yes, we all make mistakes on here, it's part of the fun! And most react. I think it's partly the nature of football and rivalry and it feeds into perception of the world. That and a more typically male trait. I doubt they go at it like this on knitting fansites. I envy those who don't react and get caught up in, it's not all that helpful really.| Stirlingsays 25 Aug 17 11.01pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
I can't believe people still are using the look at them instead argument rather than the fact that gun toting white supremacists / fascists were marching through the streets. Fascists marching through the streets and people who come out to stand against this are the ones some people on here want to put the spotlight on. I think coming out to protest fascists is in fact a good thing. As I was initially correctly reminded about Charlottesville, plenty of people did in fact do this. And I agree with those people and would have been one of them. However..... Also at Charlottesville were various forms of violent Marxist groups that didn't go to protest but to confront and fight. Those neo nazis had a permit to march and so when....lets collectively call them antifa....when antifa line up and deliberately stand in the way of the march they are there for violence and video showed that.
Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Aug 2017 11.02pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 25 Aug 17 11.13pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I think coming out to protest fascists is in fact a good thing. As I was initially correctly reminded about Charlottesville, plenty of people did in fact do this. And I agree with those people and would have been one of them. However..... Also at Charlottesville were various forms of violent Marxist groups that didn't go to protest but to confront and fight. Those neo nazis had a permit to march and so when....lets collectively call them antifa....when antifa line up and deliberately stand in the way of the march they are there for violence and video showed that.
Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Aug 2017 11.02pm) Which is a handy deflection away from the fact that nazis are marching through the street.
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| Stirlingsays 25 Aug 17 11.33pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Which is a handy deflection away from the fact that nazis are marching through the street. Well yeah...it's not a deflection but I agree what's happening is not good. It's not something I support...You know before the 'progressives' and the advancement of 'identity' politics to the mainstream the far right had been reducing in numbers decade upon decade. That's what 'identity' politics gets you Nick. The opposite to will come out and also scream 'identity' politics. The far right have seen an opportunity to tap into the grievances caused by the demonisation of their group and identity just for being white. I deplore anyone for joining any group that advocates race supremacy. However, I can see what's happening under the surface. The centralists and moderates on both sides in America seem to be on the backfoot. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Aug 2017 11.34pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 26 Aug 17 12.21am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Well yeah...it's not a deflection but I agree what's happening is not good. It's not something I support...You know before the 'progressives' and the advancement of 'identity' politics to the mainstream the far right had been reducing in numbers decade upon decade. That's what 'identity' politics gets you Nick. The opposite to will come out and also scream 'identity' politics. The far right have seen an opportunity to tap into the grievances caused by the demonisation of their group and identity just for being white. I deplore anyone for joining any group that advocates race supremacy. However, I can see what's happening under the surface. The centralists and moderates on both sides in America seem to be on the backfoot. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Aug 2017 11.34pm) The old, it's the left's fault that nazi ism is on the rise line. Do behave!
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| Stirlingsays 26 Aug 17 12.25am |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
The old, it's the left's fault that nazi ism is on the rise line. Do behave! Well, 'identity politics'....that's pushed by a section of the left....'progressives' mostly. A lot of the traditional left who vote for them don't buy into it either. So it's the far left's fault yeah....not the left as such. The far left and right end up just growing each other's numbers. It will just lead to increased security laws....because at the end of the day the majority will always back the establishment over chaos.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 26 Aug 17 12.49am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Well, 'identity politics'....that's pushed by a section of the left....'progressives' mostly. A lot of the traditional left who vote for them don't buy into it either. So it's the far left's fault yeah....not the left as such. The far left and right end up just growing each other's numbers. It will just lead to increased security laws....because at the end of the day the majority will always back the establishment over chaos.
Nazis walking the streets 2 or 3 generations after the allies fought fascism and you're still saying but but those people over there, those ones who want to tell the Nazi scum what they can do with their warped ideology, look at them. It's not far from being an apologist for white supremacists. Not far.
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| Stirlingsays 26 Aug 17 1.04am |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Nazis walking the streets 2 or 3 generations after the allies fought fascism and you're still saying but but those people over there, those ones who want to tell the Nazi scum what they can do with their warped ideology, look at them. It's not far from being an apologist for white supremacists. Not far. Ah Nick. Yeah, It's about as far as calling you an apologist for Islamic extremists because you don't support reformists. I just call you misguided. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Aug 2017 1.05am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| wordup 26 Aug 17 2.23am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Ah Nick. Yeah, It's about as far as calling you an apologist for Islamic extremists because you don't support reformists. I just call you misguided. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Aug 2017 1.05am) Maybe you're both right. Maybe Nick does go above and beyond in diverting from islamic extremist incidents due to being overly concerned about protecting a group of people and missing part of the picture. And maybe you go to extreme lengths to excuse or divert from the far right. You paint charlottesvile neo nazis as marchers with permits being attacked by violent marxists groups. It's a reach. For one groups of protesters 'and' counter protesters had permits that day. Secondly one of the racists ran over and killed someone and you're criticising people for standing in the way. As for identity politics, it works both ways. If you honesty only see what the left is doing as identity related then you're either not seeing that part of the picture because it aligns with your views and comfort zone, or you don't want to acknowledge it. Trump unnecessarily pardoning Arpaio tonight is obviously done partially for identity reasons due to his perceived stance on civil rights. Do you think pardoning him is a sensible move considering the last couple of weeks? Pointlessly banning trans people from entering the military, again tonight, is clearly also done to appeal to appeal to some at the detriment of others. It's all identity related. Edited by wordup (26 Aug 2017 5.29am)
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| .TUX. 26 Aug 17 7.10am |
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Originally posted by NickinOX
Well, they are a visible depiction of people who fought to preserve slavery. It is about time they came down. It is no different than pulling down statues of Soviet leaders in Estonia, or British ones in Ireland or India. For those who don't think it was about slavery, read the reasoning of the Confederate Vice President as to the causes of the war. By the way, there have been loads of murders committed by the KKK for their cause so I am not sure what your point is. (Apologies if it's already been posted) The Corwin Amendment, March 2 1861? The North offered to preserve slavery irrevocably, but the North did not offer to give up the high tariffs and economic policies that the South saw as inimical to its interests.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 26 Aug 17 10.53am |
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Just as American towns are under pressure to remove statues of old 'problematic' white men, so the Institue of Psychiatry, Psychology and Neuroscience at King's College London has announced it will remove portraits and statues of its founders because ... well there're all white. It's pretty clear who are the intolerant, repressive party here with this historical cleansing - Goebbels would be proud of them - no doubt the usual suspects on here are.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| Stirlingsays 26 Aug 17 11.44am |
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Originally posted by wordup
Maybe you're both right. Maybe Nick does go above and beyond in diverting from islamic extremist incidents due to being overly concerned about protecting a group of people and missing part of the picture. And maybe you go to extreme lengths to excuse or divert from the far right. You paint charlottesvile neo nazis as marchers with permits being attacked by violent marxists groups. It's a reach. For one groups of protesters 'and' counter protesters had permits that day. Secondly one of the racists ran over and killed someone and you're criticising people for standing in the way. As for identity politics, it works both ways. If you honesty only see what the left is doing as identity related then you're either not seeing that part of the picture because it aligns with your views and comfort zone, or you don't want to acknowledge it. Trump unnecessarily pardoning Arpaio tonight is obviously done partially for identity reasons due to his perceived stance on civil rights. Do you think pardoning him is a sensible move considering the last couple of weeks? Pointlessly banning trans people from entering the military, again tonight, is clearly also done to appeal to appeal to some at the detriment of others. It's all identity related. Edited by wordup (26 Aug 2017 5.29am) When I say, 'identity' politics I talking about the politics of 'skin colour'. When you widen that how to talk about political demographics....that's moving into different areas. That's fine of course and something to be discussed but it wasn't what I was referring to. I don't accept that I have excused or diverted from the far right. Indeed I have explicitly criticised them. Where has Nick explicitly criticised Antifa? He hasn't, indeed he has supported them, whereas I haven't supported violence from whatever side. I don't believe the equivalency is there. I have condemned the murder of a protester. I also condemn the violence from the left....for example, that Sanders supporter who shot at Republicans at that Baseball game. I hear a lot people condemning Trump for his language and suggesting it encourages the far right but if this indeed has any validity then it's just as true of the language of his opponents. The Arpaio situation seems to be around the area of illegal immigrants. I don't know much about the rights or wrongs of what he did legally. I know Presidents often pardon in some iffy circumstances, maybe this is one of those or maybe not.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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