Time for PV too keep his word

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Time for PV too keep his word

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Lanzo-Ad Lanzarote 31 Mar 22 11.01am
No, its a factual book about the freemasons particularly about Florence, the home of the freemasons, its about a satanic Grande lodge. just google "monster of Florence" on Wiki, or there is a fantastic documentary on Scottish (STV) player “That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn
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Lanzo-Ad

Lanzarote 31 Mar 22 11.01am

No, its a factual book about the freemasons particularly about Florence, the home of the freemasons, its about a satanic Grande lodge. just google "monster of Florence" on Wiki, or there is a fantastic documentary on Scottish (STV) player

“That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn

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Omph Liverpool 31 Mar 22 11.17am
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow He didn't start either game for the England U20s this break, which suggests he's not as good as some are wanting him to be. It's also worth putting some perspective on this; no one in that England U20 squad is playing Premier League football - in fact, I think Rak-Sakyi is one of only two players in that squad with a Prem appearance to their name, the other being James McAtee who is one of the best prospects in the country. He's developing fine - I hope he does get an appearance or two before the end of the season, particularly with our safety pretty much assured, but some perspective needed Another way of looking at this he has the least first team football of any of the mids in that squad. His experience is less than or on a par with the players from City or Liverpool. The vast majority of the mids in the squad have reasonably extensive experience at Champo level - even if on loan. The England U21 manager is on record as saying how highly he rates him but finds it hard to place him simply because he has only U23 experience. A couple of mins week 1 off the bench is frankly irrelevant. Edit: this is the relevant article [Link] The most relevant bit is “What I’ve noticed is trying to compare a player who is playing in the U23s with a player that’s playing in the Championship is very difficult,” explained Carsley. “I expect one to do really well and I expect one to struggle and it’s having the eye to see how [these players] would fit in there. “The quicker these players can get out on loan or play senior football it helps them [as] part of their development. It’s an important part of making that next step.” I wouldn't be drawing any conclusions from his England U20 record at all on the basis of this. Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.23am) Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.24am)
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Omph

Liverpool 31 Mar 22 11.17am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

He didn't start either game for the England U20s this break, which suggests he's not as good as some are wanting him to be.

It's also worth putting some perspective on this; no one in that England U20 squad is playing Premier League football - in fact, I think Rak-Sakyi is one of only two players in that squad with a Prem appearance to their name, the other being James McAtee who is one of the best prospects in the country.

He's developing fine - I hope he does get an appearance or two before the end of the season, particularly with our safety pretty much assured, but some perspective needed

Another way of looking at this he has the least first team football of any of the mids in that squad. His experience is less than or on a par with the players from City or Liverpool. The vast majority of the mids in the squad have reasonably extensive experience at Champo level - even if on loan.

The England U21 manager is on record as saying how highly he rates him but finds it hard to place him simply because he has only U23 experience. A couple of mins week 1 off the bench is frankly irrelevant.

Edit: this is the relevant article

[Link]

The most relevant bit is

“What I’ve noticed is trying to compare a player who is playing in the U23s with a player that’s playing in the Championship is very difficult,” explained Carsley. “I expect one to do really well and I expect one to struggle and it’s having the eye to see how [these players] would fit in there.

“The quicker these players can get out on loan or play senior football it helps them [as] part of their development. It’s an important part of making that next step.”

I wouldn't be drawing any conclusions from his England U20 record at all on the basis of this.

Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.23am)

Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.24am)

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 31 Mar 22 11.27am
Originally posted by Omph Another way of looking at this he has the least first team football of any of the mids in that squad. His experience is less than or win a par with the players from City or Liverpool. The vast majority of the mids in the squad have reasonably extensive experience at Champo level - even if on loan. The England U21 manager is on record as saying how highly he rates him but finds it hard to place him simply because he has only U23 experience. A couple of mins week 1 off the bench is frankly irrelevant. That's quite a selective way of putting it - the obvious takeaway from comparing him to that squad is that Premier League minutes are very hard to come by at his age. Greenwood and McAtee are probably the two best prospects in the squad and neither have had a loan nor much first team opportunity. I think the suggestion that we could have loaned him out this season is valid, and I've no doubt there were clubs interested, so clearly PV and the club have decided having him in and around the first team is more valuable. Hopefully he does get some opportunities towards the end of the year.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 31 Mar 22 11.27am

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Originally posted by Omph

Another way of looking at this he has the least first team football of any of the mids in that squad. His experience is less than or win a par with the players from City or Liverpool. The vast majority of the mids in the squad have reasonably extensive experience at Champo level - even if on loan.

That's quite a selective way of putting it - the obvious takeaway from comparing him to that squad is that Premier League minutes are very hard to come by at his age.
Greenwood and McAtee are probably the two best prospects in the squad and neither have had a loan nor much first team opportunity.

I think the suggestion that we could have loaned him out this season is valid, and I've no doubt there were clubs interested, so clearly PV and the club have decided having him in and around the first team is more valuable.

Hopefully he does get some opportunities towards the end of the year.

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Qwijibo Bournemouth 31 Mar 22 11.30am
Originally posted by doombear I think he's now at least 5ft 10 ins and more than holds his own against bigger players in the U23s. Having said that, he has been unfortunate to find Olise in situ but if Olise's injury is going to keep him out for several weeks, Rak-Sakyi may well get some game time as he offers something different to Ayew. Haha, ok, well that's step one under way, I did say he needs to be more Zaha-shaped by the end of next season.
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Qwijibo

Bournemouth 31 Mar 22 11.30am

Originally posted by doombear

I think he's now at least 5ft 10 ins and more than holds his own against bigger players in the U23s. Having said that, he has been unfortunate to find Olise in situ but if Olise's injury is going to keep him out for several weeks, Rak-Sakyi may well get some game time as he offers something different to Ayew.

Haha, ok, well that's step one under way, I did say he needs to be more Zaha-shaped by the end of next season.

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Lanzo-Ad Lanzarote 31 Mar 22 11.33am
Originally posted by Omph Another way of looking at this he has the least first team football of any of the mids in that squad. His experience is less than or on a par with the players from City or Liverpool. The vast majority of the mids in the squad have reasonably extensive experience at Champo level - even if on loan. The England U21 manager is on record as saying how highly he rates him but finds it hard to place him simply because he has only U23 experience. A couple of mins week 1 off the bench is frankly irrelevant. Edit: this is the relevant article [Link] The most relevant bit is “What I’ve noticed is trying to compare a player who is playing in the U23s with a player that’s playing in the Championship is very difficult,” explained Carsley. “I expect one to do really well and I expect one to struggle and it’s having the eye to see how [these players] would fit in there. “The quicker these players can get out on loan or play senior football it helps them [as] part of their development. It’s an important part of making that next step.” I wouldn't be drawing any conclusions from his England U20 record at all on the basis of this. Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.23am) Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.24am) Very true, with the rubbish we have on the bench, and safely in mid table surely there is space for a couple of U23 players on the bench “That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn
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Lanzo-Ad

Lanzarote 31 Mar 22 11.33am

Originally posted by Omph

Edit: this is the relevant article

[Link]

The most relevant bit is

“The quicker these players can get out on loan or play senior football it helps them [as] part of their development. It’s an important part of making that next step.”

I wouldn't be drawing any conclusions from his England U20 record at all on the basis of this.

Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.23am)

Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.24am)

Very true, with the rubbish we have on the bench, and safely in mid table surely there is space for a couple of U23 players on the bench

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 31 Mar 22 11.33am
Originally posted by Omph Another way of looking at this he has the least first team football of any of the mids in that squad. His experience is less than or on a par with the players from City or Liverpool. The vast majority of the mids in the squad have reasonably extensive experience at Champo level - even if on loan. The England U21 manager is on record as saying how highly he rates him but finds it hard to place him simply because he has only U23 experience. A couple of mins week 1 off the bench is frankly irrelevant. Edit: this is the relevant article [Link] The most relevant bit is “What I’ve noticed is trying to compare a player who is playing in the U23s with a player that’s playing in the Championship is very difficult,” explained Carsley. “I expect one to do really well and I expect one to struggle and it’s having the eye to see how [these players] would fit in there. “The quicker these players can get out on loan or play senior football it helps them [as] part of their development. It’s an important part of making that next step.” I wouldn't be drawing any conclusions from his England U20 record at all on the basis of this. Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.23am) Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.24am) I hadn't read that interview before - interesting; thanks for sharing I think you're misinterpreting my point, which is not to suggest that a loan is a bad idea, just that minutes in the Premier League are exceptionally hard to come by at that age. I think in hindsight we should have loaned him to the Championship this season - maybe they thought he'd get more opportunities or didn't expect Olise to be quite as impactful straight away etc.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 31 Mar 22 11.33am

Originally posted by Omph

Edit: this is the relevant article

[Link]

The most relevant bit is

“The quicker these players can get out on loan or play senior football it helps them [as] part of their development. It’s an important part of making that next step.”

I wouldn't be drawing any conclusions from his England U20 record at all on the basis of this.

Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.23am)

Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.24am)

I hadn't read that interview before - interesting; thanks for sharing

I think you're misinterpreting my point, which is not to suggest that a loan is a bad idea, just that minutes in the Premier League are exceptionally hard to come by at that age.

I think in hindsight we should have loaned him to the Championship this season - maybe they thought he'd get more opportunities or didn't expect Olise to be quite as impactful straight away etc.

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Dubai Eagle 31 Mar 22 11.37am
I stand ready to be corrected here but didn't both our U18 & U23 teams get promoted at the end of last season ? If so we may well have felt that as we were going to be playing at a higher level that it would be best to keep our promoted squad together, at least until we have established what life would look like in the new respective divisions.
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Dubai Eagle

31 Mar 22 11.37am

I stand ready to be corrected here but didn't both our U18 & U23 teams get promoted at the end of last season ?

If so we may well have felt that as we were going to be playing at a higher level that it would be best to keep our promoted squad together, at least until we have established what life would look like in the new respective divisions.

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Omph Liverpool 31 Mar 22 11.52am
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow I hadn't read that interview before - interesting; thanks for sharing I think you're misinterpreting my point, which is not to suggest that a loan is a bad idea, just that minutes in the Premier League are exceptionally hard to come by at that age. I think in hindsight we should have loaned him to the Championship this season - maybe they thought he'd get more opportunities or didn't expect Olise to be quite as impactful straight away etc. An interesting angle on this is that when PV came he brought with him someone from the PSG youth system whose remit was specifically iirc to manage the transition from youth set up to first team football. It's something obvs on PV's agenda. My 2+2 = 5 logic here is that JRS is on course for some first team football this term. The limitations of U23 football is not a particular secret and the loan system is by now a well-acknowledged route to progression. JRS is clearly rated internally and presumably a principled decision has been made to not farm him out. 2+2 doesn't always equal 5 of course so perhaps restricting his man's football exposure has another explanation. Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.53am)
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Omph

Liverpool 31 Mar 22 11.52am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I hadn't read that interview before - interesting; thanks for sharing

I think you're misinterpreting my point, which is not to suggest that a loan is a bad idea, just that minutes in the Premier League are exceptionally hard to come by at that age.

I think in hindsight we should have loaned him to the Championship this season - maybe they thought he'd get more opportunities or didn't expect Olise to be quite as impactful straight away etc.

An interesting angle on this is that when PV came he brought with him someone from the PSG youth system whose remit was specifically iirc to manage the transition from youth set up to first team football. It's something obvs on PV's agenda.

My 2+2 = 5 logic here is that JRS is on course for some first team football this term. The limitations of U23 football is not a particular secret and the loan system is by now a well-acknowledged route to progression. JRS is clearly rated internally and presumably a principled decision has been made to not farm him out.

2+2 doesn't always equal 5 of course so perhaps restricting his man's football exposure has another explanation.

Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.53am)

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 31 Mar 22 12.09pm
Originally posted by Omph An interesting angle on this is that when PV came he brought with him someone from the PSG youth system whose remit was specifically iirc to manage the transition from youth set up to first team football. It's something obvs on PV's agenda. My 2+2 = 5 logic here is that JRS is on course for some first team football this term. The limitations of U23 football is not a particular secret and the loan system is by now a well-acknowledged route to progression. JRS is clearly rated internally and presumably a principled decision has been made to not farm him out. 2+2 doesn't always equal 5 of course so perhaps restricting his man's football exposure has another explanation. Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.53am) Yes, that was Said Aigoun who came with quite a big reputation. Wasn't PV's role at City also to help identify talent and manage the transition from youth to men's football? I also think it would've been part of Parish's pitch to any potential manager last summer that we've got these two youth squads coming through, new academy opening etc. and made clear that the expectation would be for some of those to make it into the first team, so potentially JRS was kept here as the best hope of achieving that. Definitely agree it was a decision not to loan him out - it won't have been a lack of interest given what he's done in the development league.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 31 Mar 22 12.09pm

Originally posted by Omph

2+2 doesn't always equal 5 of course so perhaps restricting his man's football exposure has another explanation.

Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 11.53am)

Yes, that was Said Aigoun who came with quite a big reputation.

Wasn't PV's role at City also to help identify talent and manage the transition from youth to men's football?

I also think it would've been part of Parish's pitch to any potential manager last summer that we've got these two youth squads coming through, new academy opening etc. and made clear that the expectation would be for some of those to make it into the first team, so potentially JRS was kept here as the best hope of achieving that.

Definitely agree it was a decision not to loan him out - it won't have been a lack of interest given what he's done in the development league.

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Omph Liverpool 31 Mar 22 12.53pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow Yes, that was Said Aigoun who came with quite a big reputation. Wasn't PV's role at City also to help identify talent and manage the transition from youth to men's football? I also think it would've been part of Parish's pitch to any potential manager last summer that we've got these two youth squads coming through, new academy opening etc. and made clear that the expectation would be for some of those to make it into the first team, so potentially JRS was kept here as the best hope of achieving that. Definitely agree it was a decision not to loan him out - it won't have been a lack of interest given what he's done in the development league. A different angle on this is that JRS plays in a position that is particularly demanding under the PV system and it takes time to come to terms with it. Olise after all took quite a time to establish himself despite a completely starring season in the Champo. It could well be that Vieira has decided that JRS would benefit from a full season's tuition in his way before going out on loan and putting it all into practice. Train JRS up first and then allow him to have a more dominant season in the champo than might otherwise be the case? This would put his development back a year at first sight but might produce a stronger player at the end. Looked at in one way it is putting skills before experience, which does add up. Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 12.53pm)
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Omph

Liverpool 31 Mar 22 12.53pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Yes, that was Said Aigoun who came with quite a big reputation.

Wasn't PV's role at City also to help identify talent and manage the transition from youth to men's football?

Definitely agree it was a decision not to loan him out - it won't have been a lack of interest given what he's done in the development league.

A different angle on this is that JRS plays in a position that is particularly demanding under the PV system and it takes time to come to terms with it. Olise after all took quite a time to establish himself despite a completely starring season in the Champo.

It could well be that Vieira has decided that JRS would benefit from a full season's tuition in his way before going out on loan and putting it all into practice. Train JRS up first and then allow him to have a more dominant season in the champo than might otherwise be the case? This would put his development back a year at first sight but might produce a stronger player at the end.

Looked at in one way it is putting skills before experience, which does add up.

Edited by Omph (31 Mar 2022 12.53pm)

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doombear Too far from Selhurst Park 31 Mar 22 2.14pm
Originally posted by Dubai Eagle I stand ready to be corrected here but didn't both our U18 & U23 teams get promoted at the end of last season ? If so we may well have felt that as we were going to be playing at a higher level that it would be best to keep our promoted squad together, at least until we have established what life would look like in the new respective divisions. They are two different systems. The U18 leagues are regional in that there is a north and a south. the winners of the two leagues play to decide who is the overall U18 champions. I think last season Citeh beat Fulham (the latter having pipped us on goal difference despite us doing the double over them). The U23s did get promoted to the top league through the play-offs (Leeds won the 2nd division). We are now playing against the top teams although some of them (Chelsea being the prime example) are struggling because their best U23 players are out on loan (think Gallagher, Broja, Gilmour etc.) Indeed Chelsea U23s are in danger of relegation (currently 13th out of 14 teams). We are doing well in 5th place, whereas Leeds who romped to the 2nd division title last year are down in 11th. We've been playing our strongest team most of the season. Leeds on the other hand have had to shore up their first team squad with youngsters. Some of our more experienced youngsters did go out on loan in January (by which point our U23s weren't in any relegation danger). Both O'Brien ()at Swindon and Street (at Newport) seem to be getting regular men's football albeit in League 2 (both teams fighting for a play-off place so good experience for our lads).
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doombear

Too far from Selhurst Park 31 Mar 22 2.14pm

Originally posted by Dubai Eagle

I stand ready to be corrected here but didn't both our U18 & U23 teams get promoted at the end of last season ?

They are two different systems. The U18 leagues are regional in that there is a north and a south. the winners of the two leagues play to decide who is the overall U18 champions. I think last season Citeh beat Fulham (the latter having pipped us on goal difference despite us doing the double over them).

The U23s did get promoted to the top league through the play-offs (Leeds won the 2nd division). We are now playing against the top teams although some of them (Chelsea being the prime example) are struggling because their best U23 players are out on loan (think Gallagher, Broja, Gilmour etc.) Indeed Chelsea U23s are in danger of relegation (currently 13th out of 14 teams). We are doing well in 5th place, whereas Leeds who romped to the 2nd division title last year are down in 11th. We've been playing our strongest team most of the season. Leeds on the other hand have had to shore up their first team squad with youngsters. Some of our more experienced youngsters did go out on loan in January (by which point our U23s weren't in any relegation danger). Both O'Brien ()at Swindon and Street (at Newport) seem to be getting regular men's football albeit in League 2 (both teams fighting for a play-off place so good experience for our lads).

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 31 Mar 22 2.38pm
Originally posted by doombear They are two different systems. The U18 leagues are regional in that there is a north and a south. the winners of the two leagues play to decide who is the overall U18 champions. I think last season Citeh beat Fulham (the latter having pipped us on goal difference despite us doing the double over them). The U23s did get promoted to the top league through the play-offs (Leeds won the 2nd division). We are now playing against the top teams although some of them (Chelsea being the prime example) are struggling because their best U23 players are out on loan (think Gallagher, Broja, Gilmour etc.) Indeed Chelsea U23s are in danger of relegation (currently 13th out of 14 teams). We are doing well in 5th place, whereas Leeds who romped to the 2nd division title last year are down in 11th. We've been playing our strongest team most of the season. Leeds on the other hand have had to shore up their first team squad with youngsters. Some of our more experienced youngsters did go out on loan in January (by which point our U23s weren't in any relegation danger). Both O'Brien ()at Swindon and Street (at Newport) seem to be getting regular men's football albeit in League 2 (both teams fighting for a play-off place so good experience for our lads). Interesting detail - thanks for sharing. I was always impressed with O'Brien when he played with the development squad, and he seems a big hit with the Swindon fans so far - also highly rated amongst the Irish national set-up and he started for their U21s in an impressive win and clean sheet over Sweden Seems a good prospect.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 31 Mar 22 2.38pm

Originally posted by doombear

Interesting detail - thanks for sharing.

I was always impressed with O'Brien when he played with the development squad, and he seems a big hit with the Swindon fans so far - also highly rated amongst the Irish national set-up and he started for their U21s in an impressive win and clean sheet over Sweden

Seems a good prospect.

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