Bloody Sunday

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Bloody Sunday

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PalazioVecchio south pole 15 Mar 19 10.01am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays As the Jews have shown us......you build a massive wall and ensure that only your lot are on the one side of it....then suddenly attacks drop Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2019 6.50am) Ta an cheart agat. You are correct. Make the 3 eastern counties 100% true blue prod Chelsea supporting. Make fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry 100% Catholic . supporters of a coalition of Everton, Liverpool ManUre , palace , Everybody happy. Peace. Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford
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PalazioVecchio

south pole 15 Mar 19 10.01am

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Originally posted by Stirlingsays

As the Jews have shown us......you build a massive wall and ensure that only your lot are on the one side of it....then suddenly attacks drop

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2019 6.50am)

Ta an cheart agat. You are correct.

Make the 3 eastern counties 100% true blue prod Chelsea supporting.

Make fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry 100% Catholic . supporters of a coalition of Everton, Liverpool ManUre , palace ,

Everybody happy. Peace.

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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Mapletree Croydon 15 Mar 19 10.11am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays If the British were going to stay in NI then the actions for retaining NI and significantly lowering attacks are there....not amicable for everyone but nothing would have been. As the Jews have shown us......you build a massive wall and ensure that only your lot are on the one side of it....then suddenly attacks drop massively. Trade would have to have been reconfigured but the costs would have probably worked out less than what we went through. We should have never sent troops there, just ensured the unionists were well armed and have built the wall. But I guess that's why the Jews have higher IQs than most. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2019 6.50am) Good job you aren't a history teacher.
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Mapletree

Croydon 15 Mar 19 10.11am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

If the British were going to stay in NI then the actions for retaining NI and significantly lowering attacks are there....not amicable for everyone but nothing would have been.

As the Jews have shown us......you build a massive wall and ensure that only your lot are on the one side of it....then suddenly attacks drop massively.

Trade would have to have been reconfigured but the costs would have probably worked out less than what we went through.

We should have never sent troops there, just ensured the unionists were well armed and have built the wall.

But I guess that's why the Jews have higher IQs than most.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2019 6.50am)

Good job you aren't a history teacher.

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Stirlingsays 15 Mar 19 10.16am
Originally posted by Mapletree Good job you aren't a history teacher. I have taught history to fill in, perhaps It's a good job you don't get a say on who teaches it. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2019 10.19am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

15 Mar 19 10.16am

Originally posted by Mapletree

Good job you aren't a history teacher.

I have taught history to fill in, perhaps It's a good job you don't get a say on who teaches it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2019 10.19am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 15 Mar 19 10.48am
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio Ta an cheart agat. You are correct. Make the 3 eastern counties 100% true blue prod Chelsea supporting. Make fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry 100% Catholic . supporters of a coalition of Everton, Liverpool ManUre , palace , Everybody happy. Peace. I do feel the need to point out that N Ireland was already partitioned and cordoned off as a Unionist area. It really didn't work out that we'll - although perhaps not entirely badly. To look at bad on segregation and partition look at India 1947. That really was a disaster for all and has major consequences still today. As for the Israel analogy - have the Palestinians just accepted it all and there is no further conflict, either in the past, now or the future? Segregation and partition have never worked so far. There are other examples. As for the topic of this thread, I don't believe there is any point bringing up Bloody Sunday anymore. It should be consigned to the past like the troubles have been. There is nothing to be be gained by prosecuting some old soldier except appeasing people who will probably never forgive and forget. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 15 Mar 19 10.48am

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

Ta an cheart agat. You are correct.

Make the 3 eastern counties 100% true blue prod Chelsea supporting.

Make fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry 100% Catholic . supporters of a coalition of Everton, Liverpool ManUre , palace ,

Everybody happy. Peace.

I do feel the need to point out that N Ireland was already partitioned and cordoned off as a Unionist area. It really didn't work out that we'll - although perhaps not entirely badly.
To look at bad on segregation and partition look at India 1947. That really was a disaster for all and has major consequences still today.
As for the Israel analogy - have the Palestinians just accepted it all and there is no further conflict, either in the past, now or the future?
Segregation and partition have never worked so far. There are other examples.
As for the topic of this thread, I don't believe there is any point bringing up Bloody Sunday anymore. It should be consigned to the past like the troubles have been. There is nothing to be be gained by prosecuting some old soldier except appeasing people who will probably never forgive and forget.

Red and Blue Army!

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Badger11 Beckenham 15 Mar 19 10.52am
Originally posted by ASCPFC I do feel the need to point out that N Ireland was already partitioned and cordoned off as a Unionist area. It really didn't work out that we'll - although perhaps not entirely badly. To look at bad on segregation and partition look at India 1947. That really was a disaster for all and has major consequences still today. As for the Israel analogy - have the Palestinians just accepted it all and there is no further conflict, either in the past, now or the future? Segregation and partition have never worked so far. There are other examples. As for the topic of this thread, I don't believe there is any point bringing up Bloody Sunday anymore. It should be consigned to the past like the troubles have been. There is nothing to be be gained by prosecuting some old soldier except appeasing people who will probably never forgive and forget. Agreed I understand the anger and call for justice of the families victims but that equally applies to the families of the many victims of terrorism. We have to move on and Blair's mistake was not to recognize that this applied to both sides. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 15 Mar 19 10.52am

Originally posted by ASCPFC

I do feel the need to point out that N Ireland was already partitioned and cordoned off as a Unionist area. It really didn't work out that we'll - although perhaps not entirely badly.
To look at bad on segregation and partition look at India 1947. That really was a disaster for all and has major consequences still today.
As for the Israel analogy - have the Palestinians just accepted it all and there is no further conflict, either in the past, now or the future?
Segregation and partition have never worked so far. There are other examples.
As for the topic of this thread, I don't believe there is any point bringing up Bloody Sunday anymore. It should be consigned to the past like the troubles have been. There is nothing to be be gained by prosecuting some old soldier except appeasing people who will probably never forgive and forget.

Agreed I understand the anger and call for justice of the families victims but that equally applies to the families of the many victims of terrorism. We have to move on and Blair's mistake was not to recognize that this applied to both sides.

One more point

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Stirlingsays 15 Mar 19 11.08am
Originally posted by ASCPFC I do feel the need to point out that N Ireland was already partitioned and cordoned off as a Unionist area. It really didn't work out that we'll - although perhaps not entirely badly. If the British are going to keep NI.....then allowing the Catholics in to populate its lands is going to end that......not all Catholics obviously but the majority will not vote for unionist parties and hence you will eventually by proxy have a united Ireland. If the point is to retain NI in the union.....that is imbecilic. But as anyone with two brain cells knows....the policy is to allow this to happen over decades....calm the horses before exiting. Originally posted by ASCPFC To look at bad on segregation and partition look at India 1947. That really was a disaster for all and has major consequences still today. What exactly do you think was going on in the troubles?.....by not dividing we got exactly that....the death of thousands. As for India and pakistan.....Partition was inevitable.....force was the only thing that kept it together before...perhaps it's more a lesson to people who insist that very different peoples (religion again) can be forced to live together forever as communication and education improve.....It doesn't work and eventually conflict is inevitable. Originally posted by ASCPFC As for the Israel analogy - have the Palestinians just accepted it all and there is no further conflict, either in the past, now or the future? Segregation and partition have never worked so far. There are other examples. The point of the wall is to ensure that attacks in Israel were vastly reduced.....the opponents of the wall insisted that this wouldn't happen.....but it is exactly what has and did happen. Segregation and partition has worked, and Israel is evidence for it. If you are going to have two separate nations on the same island....but a significant part of one nation won't accept it...as in the IRA. Then because war with Ireland was off the table then a wall was the only realistic method of ensuring they couldn't get at NI. Why does the attitude of your opponent....who hates you...matter? Originally posted by ASCPFC As for the topic of this thread, I don't believe there is any point bringing up Bloody Sunday anymore. It should be consigned to the past like the troubles have been. There is nothing to be be gained by prosecuting some old soldier except appeasing people who will probably never forgive and forget. Well I'd agree that the Good Friday agreement should have covered this.....but it didn't so hence the thread. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2019 11.42am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

15 Mar 19 11.08am

Originally posted by ASCPFC

I do feel the need to point out that N Ireland was already partitioned and cordoned off as a Unionist area. It really didn't work out that we'll - although perhaps not entirely badly.

If the British are going to keep NI.....then allowing the Catholics in to populate its lands is going to end that......not all Catholics obviously but the majority will not vote for unionist parties and hence you will eventually by proxy have a united Ireland.

If the point is to retain NI in the union.....that is imbecilic.

But as anyone with two brain cells knows....the policy is to allow this to happen over decades....calm the horses before exiting.

Originally posted by ASCPFC

To look at bad on segregation and partition look at India 1947. That really was a disaster for all and has major consequences still today.

What exactly do you think was going on in the troubles?.....by not dividing we got exactly that....the death of thousands.

As for India and pakistan.....Partition was inevitable.....force was the only thing that kept it together before...perhaps it's more a lesson to people who insist that very different peoples (religion again) can be forced to live together forever as communication and education improve.....It doesn't work and eventually conflict is inevitable.

Originally posted by ASCPFC

As for the Israel analogy - have the Palestinians just accepted it all and there is no further conflict, either in the past, now or the future?
Segregation and partition have never worked so far. There are other examples.

The point of the wall is to ensure that attacks in Israel were vastly reduced.....the opponents of the wall insisted that this wouldn't happen.....but it is exactly what has and did happen.

Segregation and partition has worked, and Israel is evidence for it.

If you are going to have two separate nations on the same island....but a significant part of one nation won't accept it...as in the IRA. Then because war with Ireland was off the table then a wall was the only realistic method of ensuring they couldn't get at NI.

Why does the attitude of your opponent....who hates you...matter?

Originally posted by ASCPFC

As for the topic of this thread, I don't believe there is any point bringing up Bloody Sunday anymore. It should be consigned to the past like the troubles have been. There is nothing to be be gained by prosecuting some old soldier except appeasing people who will probably never forgive and forget.

Well I'd agree that the Good Friday agreement should have covered this.....but it didn't so hence the thread.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2019 11.42am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 15 Mar 19 3.25pm
Bloke on tv last night said the ira were nothing but a bigger boy scout movement before bloody sunday, seeing 13 innocents slaughtered by hm forces made them the biggest terrorist movement europe has ever seen, you wouldn"t have had over 3000 people killed since as the "scout " movement wouldnt have gained thousands of young new recruits to fight the cause, those soldiers who decided not to follow orders have a lot of blood on their hands, and if found guilty should pay the price! The ira wern" into drugs either as someone said, they got their money from robbing banks and donations, mainly from the usa, and whoever said adams and mcguiness were informers must be living on fantasy island, you don"t walk around in public for 30 years and get away with it if you are an informer! Im happy with the normality that exists now in the country, north and south, the demographics will in time get a united ireland, catholic families bigger than protestant ones, moving into old protestant estates, general mixing up of communities, normality except for the die hards on both sides, but the sea is generally calm at the moment, long may it continue! The reason this country didn"t go and steamroll the ira, with our army, isn"t a moral one, it was because of 45 million irish in america, who ultimately pull the strings in the world, without the usa, no doubt we would have gone in and killed a whole lot more that 13 innocents, but as they say, god bless the united states of america!
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croydon proud

Any european country i fancy! 15 Mar 19 3.25pm

Bloke on tv last night said the ira were nothing but a bigger boy scout movement before bloody sunday, seeing 13 innocents slaughtered by hm forces made them the biggest terrorist movement europe has ever seen, you wouldn"t have had over 3000 people killed since as the "scout " movement wouldnt have gained thousands of young new recruits to fight the cause, those soldiers who decided not to follow orders have a lot of blood on their hands, and if found guilty should pay the price! The ira wern" into drugs either as someone said, they got their money from robbing banks and donations, mainly from the usa, and whoever said adams and mcguiness were informers must be living on fantasy island, you don"t walk around in public for 30 years and get away with it if you are an informer! Im happy with the normality that exists now in the country, north and south, the demographics will in time get a united ireland, catholic families bigger than protestant ones, moving into old protestant estates, general mixing up of communities, normality except for the die hards on both sides, but the sea is generally calm at the moment, long may it continue! The reason this country didn"t go and steamroll the ira, with our army, isn"t a moral one, it was because of 45 million irish in america, who ultimately pull the strings in the world, without the usa, no doubt we would have gone in and killed a whole lot more that 13 innocents, but as they say, god bless the united states of america!

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PalazioVecchio south pole 15 Mar 19 3.54pm
i favour a slow ( 30 years +) partition of Northern Ireland into East and West, Prod and Catholic. use social housing, the dole etc to enforce the change. Prod living in Derry ? swap with Mrs Murphy living in Belfast...here is a few quid for your troubles. Catholic won't budge from their home in Warrenpoint ? cut their dole back. Very quickly the change would gather its own momentum. Peace all round. start with all the dole-heads and everybody else would follow. Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford
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PalazioVecchio

south pole 15 Mar 19 3.54pm

i favour a slow ( 30 years +) partition of Northern Ireland into East and West, Prod and Catholic.

use social housing, the dole etc to enforce the change.

Prod living in Derry ? swap with Mrs Murphy living in Belfast...here is a few quid for your troubles.

Catholic won't budge from their home in Warrenpoint ? cut their dole back.

Very quickly the change would gather its own momentum. Peace all round.

start with all the dole-heads and everybody else would follow.

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 15 Mar 19 4.17pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Well I'd agree that the Good Friday agreement should have covered this.....but it didn't so hence the thread. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2019 11.42am) Partition and particularly the way partition was done caused more problems than it solved. However, there did need to be a way to protect the Unionist population so maybe partition was the lesser of several evils. In India, partition was carried out hurriedly and, frankly, very badly. I believe even the most conservative estimates of deaths suggest 800000 killed at the time. That will not include deaths from the one inevitable national conflicts that then occurred. The Day India Burned is a pretty good documentary on this. Even though it is BBC it seems balanced and you might want to watch it: beware it is not pleasant viewing in some places. As for Isreali 'peace walls': as we speak, there are rockets firing from one side and retaliation coming from the other. One could suggest, that the partition of Palestine has been a major source of world unrest ever since it happened. I just cannot advocate partitioning territories on mainly religious grounds. Always has an inherent instability. In all of these territories there has not been an invasion of the other religion (except during open wars), rather all of these states still had people of the other persuasion who still lived there. These were the minorities and they found themselves not treated as well as the majority. This continues in some cases. Thankfully, in NI there is not the same discrimination as used to exist - the very reason British forces went in. As for bringing up Bloody Sunday- this wasn't a criticism of this thread. I am criticising the government for allowing continued investigations and the publicity of this. This seems like appeasement, when natural justice may be better served by this being consigned to the past. I don't doubt that there were crimes carried out by British forces in Northern Ireland but they were under extreme duress and I don't believe that can be ignored. I don't think prosecuting someone now will help anyone. McGuiness openly admitted to running around Derry with a machine gun on Bloody Sunday but was careful to say that it was only after shots had been fired at civilians. You can believe him or not. I certainly believe he was running around with a gun. Now, I do want to say that my criticism of partition and 'walls' does not include any of the factors of Trump's wall. That is different because I believe that illegal immigrants should be kept out of countries where they may takeaway from people legally residing there. I don't know if a wall is the best solution but I also do not know all of the alternatives. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 15 Mar 19 4.17pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Well I'd agree that the Good Friday agreement should have covered this.....but it didn't so hence the thread.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2019 11.42am)

Partition and particularly the way partition was done caused more problems than it solved. However, there did need to be a way to protect the Unionist population so maybe partition was the lesser of several evils.
In India, partition was carried out hurriedly and, frankly, very badly. I believe even the most conservative estimates of deaths suggest 800000 killed at the time. That will not include deaths from the one inevitable national conflicts that then occurred. The Day India Burned is a pretty good documentary on this. Even though it is BBC it seems balanced and you might want to watch it: beware it is not pleasant viewing in some places.
As for Isreali 'peace walls': as we speak, there are rockets firing from one side and retaliation coming from the other.
One could suggest, that the partition of Palestine has been a major source of world unrest ever since it happened.
I just cannot advocate partitioning territories on mainly religious grounds. Always has an inherent instability.
In all of these territories there has not been an invasion of the other religion (except during open wars), rather all of these states still had people of the other persuasion who still lived there. These were the minorities and they found themselves not treated as well as the majority. This continues in some cases.
Thankfully, in NI there is not the same discrimination as used to exist - the very reason British forces went in.
As for bringing up Bloody Sunday- this wasn't a criticism of this thread. I am criticising the government for allowing continued investigations and the publicity of this. This seems like appeasement, when natural justice may be better served by this being consigned to the past.
I don't doubt that there were crimes carried out by British forces in Northern Ireland but they were under extreme duress and I don't believe that can be ignored. I don't think prosecuting someone now will help anyone.
McGuiness openly admitted to running around Derry with a machine gun on Bloody Sunday but was careful to say that it was only after shots had been fired at civilians. You can believe him or not. I certainly believe he was running around with a gun.
Now, I do want to say that my criticism of partition and 'walls' does not include any of the factors of Trump's wall. That is different because I believe that illegal immigrants should be kept out of countries where they may takeaway from people legally residing there. I don't know if a wall is the best solution but I also do not know all of the alternatives.

Red and Blue Army!

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elgrande bedford 15 Mar 19 4.53pm
Originally posted by Jamesey Only one idiot on this thread so far...encouraging for anyone who believes that prosecuting our own army over what was obviously a civil war (although never admitted as such) is appalling. Soldier F is one too many and a disgraceful betrayal of loyal servicemen. Even worse is the fact that Blair totally sold out to the IRA in what was laughably called a peace agrement. Apparently the great statesman Blair seriously expected to be awarded a Nobel Peace Prize for his shocking capitulation to the IRA nearly all of whom, of course, have never even been threatened with legal action for the far worse atrociies they committed. This whole business of hounding UK military veterans and now on another note more sympathetic noises towards letting in the ISIS brood mare seriously make me wonder whether we are descending into collective madness in this country which I used to love and be proud to belong to. Edited by Jamesey (14 Mar 2019 11.18pm) Very good post. always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.
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elgrande

bedford 15 Mar 19 4.53pm

Originally posted by Jamesey

Only one idiot on this thread so far...encouraging for anyone who believes that prosecuting our own army over what was obviously a civil war (although never admitted as such) is appalling.
Soldier F is one too many and a disgraceful betrayal of loyal servicemen.
Even worse is the fact that Blair totally sold out to the IRA in what was laughably called a peace agrement.
Apparently the great statesman Blair seriously expected to be awarded a Nobel Peace Prize for his shocking capitulation to the IRA nearly all of whom, of course, have never even been threatened with legal action for the far worse atrociies they committed.
This whole business of hounding UK military veterans and now on another note more sympathetic noises towards letting in the ISIS brood mare seriously make me wonder whether we are descending into collective madness in this country which I used to love and be proud to belong to.

Edited by Jamesey (14 Mar 2019 11.18pm)

Very good post.

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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elgrande bedford 15 Mar 19 5.04pm
Originally posted by croydon proud Bloke on tv last night said the ira were nothing but a bigger boy scout movement before bloody sunday, seeing 13 innocents slaughtered by hm forces made them the biggest terrorist movement europe has ever seen, you wouldn"t have had over 3000 people killed since as the "scout " movement wouldnt have gained thousands of young new recruits to fight the cause, those soldiers who decided not to follow orders have a lot of blood on their hands, and if found guilty should pay the price! The ira wern" into drugs either as someone said, they got their money from robbing banks and donations, mainly from the usa, and whoever said adams and mcguiness were informers must be living on fantasy island, you don"t walk around in public for 30 years and get away with it if you are an informer! Im happy with the normality that exists now in the country, north and south, the demographics will in time get a united ireland, catholic families bigger than protestant ones, moving into old protestant estates, general mixing up of communities, normality except for the die hards on both sides, but the sea is generally calm at the moment, long may it continue! The reason this country didn"t go and steamroll the ira, with our army, isn"t a moral one, it was because of 45 million irish in america, who ultimately pull the strings in the world, without the usa, no doubt we would have gone in and killed a whole lot more that 13 innocents, but as they say, god bless the united states of america! A couple of points,so you say they should pay the consequences..fair enough,what about all the bombers let out by Blair ..should they go back to prison. And one of the reasons the "peace process " succeeded,was after 9/11 an awful lot of the "donations to the cause" simply dried up. always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.
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elgrande

bedford 15 Mar 19 5.04pm

Originally posted by croydon proud

A couple of points,so you say they should pay the consequences..fair enough,what about all the bombers let out by Blair ..should they go back to prison.
And one of the reasons the "peace process " succeeded,was after 9/11 an awful lot of the "donations to the cause" simply dried up.

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 15 Mar 19 5.52pm
Originally posted by elgrande A couple of points,so you say they should pay the consequences..fair enough,what about all the bombers let out by Blair ..should they go back to prison. And one of the reasons the "peace process " succeeded,was after 9/11 an awful lot of the "donations to the cause" simply dried up. If those soldiers that didn"t follow orders and killed 13 innocents hadn"t done that , 3000 odd people might be around today, the reason all those others went to prison on nationalist and loyalist side was a consequence of the actions of those soldiers that day! And agreed 911 was a conseqence of the peace, but not as significant as the city square mile bombs, causing billions of pounds of damage to the city insurers, also 3 lifes! Nobody seemed to want to talk when 3000 plus people were killed on all sides, but when a billion pounds worth of damage is done with one truck they wanted to negotiate seriously, money talks as usual!
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croydon proud

Any european country i fancy! 15 Mar 19 5.52pm

Originally posted by elgrande

If those soldiers that didn"t follow orders and killed 13 innocents hadn"t done that , 3000 odd people might be around today, the reason all those others went to prison on nationalist and loyalist side was a consequence of the actions of those soldiers that day! And agreed 911 was a conseqence of the peace, but not as significant as the city square mile bombs, causing billions of pounds of damage to the city insurers, also 3 lifes! Nobody seemed to want to talk when 3000 plus people were killed on all sides, but when a billion pounds worth of damage is done with one truck they wanted to negotiate seriously, money talks as usual!

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