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.TUX.  18 Sep 17 7.17pm |
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This is one unhappy nation......... Edit: .........yet despite the IOUSA finally breaking the $20TRILLION debt ceiling (they are un-officially bankrupt and added another $1,000 debt to every man, woman and child last week) and with the Senate just about to pass another $700BILLION toward the defence budget (because they really need it!), some squabbling among the peasants is prime-time news. Go figure. Edited by .TUX. (18 Sep 2017 10.01pm)
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 Stirlingsays 19 Sep 17 6.15am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yeah but you do realise that I also believe in holding that tiny fraction accountable for their actions. I don't have a problem with Islam or Muslims, but those who are engaged in terrorism or providing material support to terrorism or recruiting for terrorism, I have a massive issue with - and believe should feel the full weight of the law - and where necessary extra-judicial actions are warrented. I don't believe that tiny fraction shouldn't be held accountable. I just have an issue with the idea that everyone else should be. The idea that you can section of communities into....this is extreme and this isn't and there isn't a blurring is highly idealistic and unrealistic in practice. Coffee doesn't actually smell like this. But for sure, peaceful people must never feel under threat. Where I'd agree with you is that Islam is here to stay in the country. Don't get me wrong, I'd like only secular or cultural Islam as those are the only versions that come with a guarantee of no problems. But this is also unrealistic. The countries that have small Islamic communities that have rejected large scale Islamic immigration in Europe and elsewhere are actually protecting their societies from unacceptable risks.....Yet, the left slate them and the right stay silent. When it comes to this issue all our mainstream parties have your attitude. It isn't going to age well Jamie. Unlike you, I don't think the level of resources being spent on this one community is on at all. The idea that this community are hard done by leaves me incredulous when its impact has been....in real practical terms horrendous. 600 MI5 ongoing operations and over 20, 000 on watch lists. But I'm a realist and Islam is here to stay. But as a percentage of the population going above say 15 percent....one in six is going to be utter madness. The growth rate is ridiculous and the blind denialists are at the wheel. I want my children to grow up in secularism. Without real reform, I want you to tell me how that is going to happen.
Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Sep 2017 6.33am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 19 Sep 17 6.30am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Its a bit different when someone turns up with a gun as a result and peoples lives a threatened. Free speech doesn't protect people from the consequences of actions that incite, knowingly or not, criminal acts. I have an issue, and so should you, about people who completely fabricate false stories for political gain and then attempt to avoid any responsibility for their actions claiming it was a joke or a hoax And it was a hoax that just happened to occur during the election of 2016, and be about democrats - that also got traction on the usual alt-right news circuit (that bemoans so much fake news) with no attempt to verify the story. That's not free speech, that reckless endangerment. The restaurant, its owners, and businesses around it received a barrage of threats. Fake News, regardless of who is behind it politically, should not be accepted as free speech. It has very real ramifications for people in society. The abuse possibilities of what you are suggesting here are Orwellian. Surely you see that. Look at what YouTube and Twitter are doing to conservative commentators.....We are going to end up with competing outlets based upon politics and that ramps up polarization and division another level. I, for example have already drastically reduced my Google footprint after Demore.....I see this splitting happening everywhere eventually.....things have become overly political in entertainment and news and divisive consequences are inevitable. Sure, I agree...we have problems....But who gets to decide on 'fake news'? A Sanders supporter shot at Republicans....All that hyperbolic 'end of the world' nonsense spoken about Trump...when checks and balances are built into the American system for this very thing....Was that 'fake news'?.....That has consequences too....who gets to decide on what's is reasonable....How do you keep bias away from this? There is a definite problem....I agree with you...But when it comes to politics action worries me. However, I agree....The Internet promotes both the qualified person and the charlatan equally. Trump would never have been elected without the Internet and soundbite headline obsessed news outlets....People good at polarization and s*** talking are rewarded...moderates and peoeple who compromise to actually get things done are not. How to sort this...without essentially censoring people who don't agree with the accepted 'group-think'.....that's the problem.....I've grown very suspicious of the move towards censorship....it seems to be politically motivated. America probably have the best system on free speech in the world.....But freedom has its price. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Sep 2017 7.24am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 19 Sep 17 6.41am |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Waddaloadas***e. What does it have to do with the price of kippers? I watched the news item on it that came on after. Showed a video of a bloke playing Jesus saying Hitler was a good man. Is it meant to be satire or a way for cunds to feel better about themselves. Edited by nickgusset (18 Sep 2017 4.19pm)
Yeah, it takes the piss out of identity politics. Both from the far right and far left. I don't think what plays after it can be blamed on them Nick. That's YouTube and hence Google. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Sep 2017 6.43am)
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You watched it though, which was good of you, it's good to see perspectives. | jamiemartin721 Reading 19 Sep 17 10.07am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The abuse possibilities of what you are suggesting here are Orwellian. Surely you see that. Look at what YouTube and Twitter are doing to conservative commentators.....We are going to end up with competing outlets based upon politics and that ramps up polarization and division another level. I, for example have already drastically reduced my Google footprint after Demore.....I see this splitting happening everywhere eventually.....things have become overly political in entertainment and news and divisive consequences are inevitable. Sure, I agree...we have problems....But who gets to decide on 'fake news'? A Sanders supporter shot at Republicans....All that hyperbolic 'end of the world' nonsense spoken about Trump...when checks and balances are built into the American system for this very thing....Was that 'fake news'?.....That has consequences too....who gets to decide on what's is reasonable....How do you keep bias away from this? There is a definite problem....I agree with you...But when it comes to politics action worries me. However, I agree....The Internet promotes both the qualified person and the charlatan equally. Trump would never have been elected without the Internet and soundbite headline obsessed news outlets....People good at polarization and s*** talking are rewarded...moderates and peoeple who compromise to actually get things done are not. How to sort this...without essentially censoring people who don't agree with the accepted 'group-think'.....that's the problem.....I've grown very suspicious of the move towards censorship....it seems to be politically motivated. America probably have the best system on free speech in the world.....But freedom has its price.
Not really what I was trying to get at. My issue isn't with the troll, but with the 'alt-right news media' that picked up the story and ran with it. Its them I hold responsible, for publicising an obviously fake story as true, without doing any fact checking. They're the ones who essentially 'shouted fire' in a theatre, and could very well have ended up getting people killed. If my car manufacturer lies about my car, then its not free speech, its a class action law suit and possible criminal charges. And let be honest - This story was so obviously fake and ridiculously easy to fact check. Those carrying the story didn't verify it - and as a result several hundred criminal acts were commited culminating in a man turning up and firing three shots from an assault rifle in a restaurant. These are so called news outlets, they should be held accountable for their content. Not just them, but other news media. They have a responsibility to the public. Edited by jamiemartin721 (19 Sep 2017 10.09am)
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| Stirlingsays 19 Sep 17 10.52am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Not really what I was trying to get at. My issue isn't with the troll, but with the 'alt-right news media' that picked up the story and ran with it. Its them I hold responsible, for publicising an obviously fake story as true, without doing any fact checking. They're the ones who essentially 'shouted fire' in a theatre, and could very well have ended up getting people killed. If my car manufacturer lies about my car, then its not free speech, its a class action law suit and possible criminal charges. And let be honest - This story was so obviously fake and ridiculously easy to fact check. Those carrying the story didn't verify it - and as a result several hundred criminal acts were commited culminating in a man turning up and firing three shots from an assault rifle in a restaurant. These are so called news outlets, they should be held accountable for their content. Not just them, but other news media. They have a responsibility to the public. Edited by jamiemartin721 (19 Sep 2017 10.09am) Car manufacturing where your car has to fit factual statistics is an ill fitting comparison to news and interpretation......0 to 60 in so and so seconds isn't 'this is how you should think' is it. You aren't really addressing the problems inherent in tackling this stuff though are you? .....the problems of bias and who watches the watcher. It's all very well complaining about what you don't like about the alt-right media with its distortions and bias I could easily say about the Emmys last night.....I get annoyed by Newsnight and loads of political commentary.....Your fake news is someone's else's worldview.....Facts form one part of reality...how you interpret those facts is another part. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Sep 2017 10.59am)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 19 Sep 17 10.53am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
America probably have the best system on free speech in the world.....But freedom has its price. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Sep 2017 7.24am) Ideologically, I'd agree, but in practicality its a system that has effectively led to the idea that opinion and belief have the same merit as factually demonstrated and evidenced arguments - and provided a forum by which law abiding Americans are demonised and the idea of value of being right and debate is undermined - and the power of speech belongs to those who have the financial capacity to broadcast. I totally believe in the idea of the free speech of individuals - I'm not sure that we should extend that to media outlets and similar businesses - where there should be a responsibility to the consumer relating to the value and integrity of the product. Problem of free speech, like any other ideal, is people - both sides - who effectively want to just shout out the otherside, rather than engage in debate. Tragic really. All its served is to lend value to opinions, and undermine reasoned debate.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 19 Sep 17 11.01am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
You aren't really addressing the problems inherent in tackling this stuff though are you .....the problems of bias and who watches the watcher. Car manufacturing where your car has to fit factual statistics is an ill fitting comparison to news and interpretation......0 to 60 in so and so seconds isn't 'this is how you should think' is it. What you don't like about the alt-right media with its distortions and bias I could easily say about the Emmys last night. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Sep 2017 10.53am) If you're broadcasting lies and deceit, as truth, you are telling people what to think. That's the danger of 'fake news'; its removing from the individual the capacity to make a choice based on the evidence. I don't think the news can ever be free of some bias. But there is a difference between bias, and deceit; and that's journalistic integrity. But there is a difference between The Times (right wing bias) and Fake News. And you can enforce that, by making outlets accountable for researching their stories and fact checking them. This isn't a new idea, its a cornerstone of journalism. You can't slander someone or libel them, so why should you be able to demonise them as pedophile death cult without being accountable for the consequences
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| Stirlingsays 19 Sep 17 11.07am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Ideologically, I'd agree, but in practicality its a system that has effectively led to the idea that opinion and belief have the same merit as factually demonstrated and evidenced arguments - and provided a forum by which law abiding Americans are demonised and the idea of value of being right and debate is undermined - and the power of speech belongs to those who have the financial capacity to broadcast. I totally believe in the idea of the free speech of individuals - I'm not sure that we should extend that to media outlets and similar businesses - where there should be a responsibility to the consumer relating to the value and integrity of the product. Problem of free speech, like any other ideal, is people - both sides - who effectively want to just shout out the otherside, rather than engage in debate. Tragic really. All its served is to lend value to opinions, and undermine reasoned debate. Sure, you highlight real problems here....I'm just not sure how much this concerned you before Trump. This has been going on....especially in the US for decades. This is what happens when news loses objectivity and becomes politically biased. There are only two solutions....remove bias from reporting....which is nearly impossible or have a competing news outlet with the same level of funding. The US has this, we do not.....I use to think we were in the better position.
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| Stirlingsays 19 Sep 17 11.10am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
You can't slander someone or libel them, so why should you be able to demonise them as pedophile death cult without being accountable for the consequences Pizza gate was there certainly....the law courts are open if so desired. There were plenty of fake news stories about Trump as well of course. Click bait is the new unethical money spinner......If action is to be taken on this stuff.....then I think it has to be very carefully done. However, what I've seen, in terms of censorship, from Google, Twitter and Facebook is not good at all. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Sep 2017 11.14am)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 19 Sep 17 11.41am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Sure, you highlight real problems here....I'm just not sure how much this concerned you before Trump. This has been going on....especially in the US for decades. This is what happens when news loses objectivity and becomes politically biased. There are only two solutions....remove bias from reporting....which is nearly impossible or have a competing news outlet with the same level of funding. The US has this, we do not.....I use to think we were in the better position. This is what happens when you have self regulation in industries, rather than an independent regulatory body; you end up with systems that serve agendas. If the news is a commodity, then its covered by trading standards (and selling something that's not fit for purpose breaks that standard) and if its the fourth estate, who are a body that effectively named in the constitution as being necessary for a free democracy, then it has to be regulated. We do that here, better than the states, through a regulatory body, and when the press crosses lines, its held accountable for doing so (admittedly not well). I'm not sure the US has better news media, as a result of competition either. Competition creates choice of outlet, but it doesn't ensure the quality of the product is better, only that its tailored to demographics of consumers. I might not agree with the slant of the Times or the Telegraph, but I can't fault them for their journalism - They separate their political bias from political parties. Left wing bias and right wing bias in the UK hasn't stopped news outlets going after political parties either. Bias isn't the problem - Its the degree of bias that's the problem - Fox News, CNN etc have an agenda, not a bias.
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Ray in Houston  Houston 20 Sep 17 3.50pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
This is what happens when you have self regulation in industries, rather than an independent regulatory body; you end up with systems that serve agendas. If the news is a commodity, then its covered by trading standards (and selling something that's not fit for purpose breaks that standard) and if its the fourth estate, who are a body that effectively named in the constitution as being necessary for a free democracy, then it has to be regulated. We do that here, better than the states, through a regulatory body, and when the press crosses lines, its held accountable for doing so (admittedly not well). I'm not sure the US has better news media, as a result of competition either. Competition creates choice of outlet, but it doesn't ensure the quality of the product is better, only that its tailored to demographics of consumers. I might not agree with the slant of the Times or the Telegraph, but I can't fault them for their journalism - They separate their political bias from political parties. Left wing bias and right wing bias in the UK hasn't stopped news outlets going after political parties either. Bias isn't the problem - Its the degree of bias that's the problem - Fox News, CNN etc have an agenda, not a bias.
And before we get dragged down a rabbit hole about suppressing free speech, this has nothing to do with that. The US - like everyone else - regulates the use of the public airways, and it was deemed a good idea not to allow people to use such to air agenda-fueled content. The deal was that you can say what you want in the pub, but you don't get to signal-boost it all over the country without being at least responsibly accurate.
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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