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legaleagle  05 Aug 17 11.05am |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
Anyone thinking that the issues in Venezuela are solely to do with Maduro's lack of competence is laughably naïve. He is indeed part of the problem, but Venezuela's biggest problem is that interests from outside the country want to install a client regime to further their own strategic interests. (And make $$$ from those massive oil reserves and revenues, which most assuredly would be wasted on enhancing the lives of average people.) See also: Ukraine, Syria, Libya Edited by Mr_Gristle (04 Aug 2017 12.49pm) Is the correct answer.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 05 Aug 17 11.18am |
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A bit of a read, but some analysis of Maduro and the opposition. A lot of background perspective too.
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 Stirlingsays 05 Aug 17 11.19am |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Is the correct answer. BS. Any incoming government has to work with the political and economic environments around it. If they are going to implement policies that cause conflict within that environment then don't pretend that this choice has no responsibility on their part. Chavez destroyed private business and foreign investment and made Venezuela utterly dependent on oil. He destroyed the freedom of the press and oppressed opposition. He filled all important economic positions with his supporters rather than looking for merit and competence and blamed all the problems on outsiders, especially the US and took no responsibility for the stupidly risky options he choose....got on with China though....nice. When oil prices collapsed the 'head in the clouds' empire he created and his successors have carried on has simply fallen under the weight of its own economic nonsense. Without socialism and with economic competence and little corruption...with those oil reserves Venezuela should be amongst the richest countries in South America. The money should have been invested in diversifying the economy.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| matt_himself Matataland 05 Aug 17 11.45am |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Is the correct answer. What rot you speak, Rumpole. Venezuela has brought this on themselves. Pisspoor governance, supported by chucking Petro dollars at the poor ending up with oh, so predictable dictatorship. No mixed economy. No democracy. People oppressed. I love how you view the Polish government as 'distasteful' yet refuse to criticise Venezuela. Typical leftie hypocrisy.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| Stirlingsays 05 Aug 17 11.51am |
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No Nick, I don't take my information from sources like that. Perhaps next time you campaign for the Labour party and knock on doors perhaps you can pass a slip of paper showing the people you talk to the websites you use as reliable voices of reason. If nothing else it would show intellectual honesty. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Aug 2017 11.53am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| legaleagle 05 Aug 17 12.10pm |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
What rot you speak, Rumpole. Venezuela has brought this on themselves. Pisspoor governance, supported by chucking Petro dollars at the poor ending up with oh, so predictable dictatorship. No mixed economy. No democracy. People oppressed. I love how you view the Polish government as 'distasteful' yet refuse to criticise Venezuela. Typical leftie hypocrisy. Mr Uphimself, I love the way you spout your utter nonsense without any regard as to whether it is rooted in reality or not.... If you had bothered to read the thread before posting,you would have seen that my supposed refusal to criticise Venezuela exists only in the realms of your usual complete fantasy world... but at least it provides a smile...
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 05 Aug 17 12.22pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
No Nick, I don't take my information from sources like that. Perhaps next time you campaign for the Labour party and knock on doors perhaps you can pass a slip of paper showing the people you talk to the websites you use as reliable voices of reason. If nothing else it would show intellectual honesty. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Aug 2017 11.53am) You're going to Base your opinion on one side of the story without knowing the other. Hope your not on the jury when my past catches up with me.
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| Stirlingsays 05 Aug 17 12.33pm |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Anti immigrant sentiment is a good example of that.The more the poison of blaming the "other" for their ills doesn't improve the believer's life,they more they rely on more of the same poison to satiate their feelings of unhappiness Crowbar logic. The politicians being in a position where the population is increasing by 300, 000 a year and people being annoyed by it is not 'blaming the other'....though the ageing population is part of that. It is blaming the ponzi scheme economics of politicians.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 05 Aug 17 12.39pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
You're going to Base your opinion on one side of the story without knowing the other. Hope your not on the jury when my past catches up with me. Oh no, I did read it...Blaming the Americans for keeping the oil prices low...just one of the stupid excuses...Anyone sensible knows that the House of Saud kept those prices that low to hurt fracking in the US..and it's surrounding enemies.....its woeful, as was reading that socialist worker article. Rather it's you Nick who doesn't seem to read anything other than echo chamber nonsense. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Aug 2017 12.52pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 05 Aug 17 12.54pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
BS. Any incoming government has to work with the political and economic environments around it. If they are going to implement policies that cause conflict within that environment then don't pretend that this choice has no responsibility on their part. Chavez destroyed private business and foreign investment and made Venezuela utterly dependent on oil. He destroyed the freedom of the press and oppressed opposition. He filled all important economic positions with his supporters rather than looking for merit and competence and blamed all the problems on outsiders, especially the US and took no responsibility for the stupidly risky options he choose....got on with China though....nice. When oil prices collapsed the 'head in the clouds' empire he created and his successors have carried on has simply fallen under the weight of its own economic nonsense. Without socialism and with economic competence and little corruption...with those oil reserves Venezuela should be amongst the richest countries in South America. The money should have been invested in diversifying the economy.
With the greatest of respect Stirling, you don't know what you're talking about on this topic. Chavez knew that to implement leftist reforms was incredibly dangerous. You have to be aware of the context of South American politics here: in the 70s in Panama, Omar Torrijos - who acted similarly to Chavez and defied US control of the Panama canal - was assassinated by the CIA. Similar happened to Jaime Roldos in Ecuador. To take any political stance in SA politics is divisive. To bow to US corporations is to completely reject the rights and cultures of indigenous communities, Venezuela being a classic example. Before Chavez came to power, millions were living in poverty, shanty towns littered Caracas, yet oil and natural gas was ensuring great wealth for a tiny minority. That system was brutal, destructive and ambivalent to the poverty of most of the country. Chavez didn't destroy private enterprise. Most of the economy he left untouched as constitutionally, to move to such a planned econony was unfeasible. He also left much of the media alone, most of which was controlled from abroad. He also didn't destroy democracy. Every vote he participated in was officially observed by UN authorities, and Jimmy Carter even called Venezuela the most democratic country on earth. In the meantime, he suffered 3 coup attempts, US funding of militias and opposition within the country, blockades, and a ruthless international media. Was his form of socialism perfect? Absolutely not, and i agree to an extent that the chickens have come home to roost. But don't make stuff up when you criticise, or use Venezuela as some ideological stick to beat lefties with. Like i say, find out about the opposition to Maduro, find out what they stand for and who funds them, before commenting on recent events. Also on your last point...if that were in any way true, why are almost all the major oil nations - Iraq, Iran, Venezuela - all fuvked? Could it be that oil companies are actually some of the biggest swindlrrs, charlatans and murderers on the planet?
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| Stirlingsays 05 Aug 17 1.16pm |
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You can't debate with the deluded. The statistics are all there to see. People are shooting dogs to eat in Venezuela. The socialists have certainly reduced income inequality that's for sure....Everyone is dirt poor. From Human Rights Watch on Chevez's Venezuela from 2012. Their restrictions on the press,judiciary and human rights....You know, things like prosecuting Government critics....no doubt they are all the CIA. As for Chevez not destroying private enterprise.....Are you for real? Are you aware how difficult it is for a country to get business investment, let alone foreign investment??? If companies see governments acting like dictatorships and implementing anti market laws...talking about 'revolution', he completely reformed the economy away from capitalism like he could rely on oil for evermore.....companies aren't going to invest in that environment. The money flows elsewhere. Of course Chevez destroyed investment. He went to war with 'imperialism' .....yeah...going to bring in lots of investment that.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| matt_himself Matataland 05 Aug 17 1.18pm |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Mr Uphimself, I love the way you spout your utter nonsense without any regard as to whether it is rooted in reality or not.... If you had bothered to read the thread before posting,you would have seen that my supposed refusal to criticise Venezuela exists only in the realms of your usual complete fantasy world... but at least it provides a smile... Only, you haven't, have you? A couple of meely mouthed words, saying Venezuela is 'well dodgy' but then contradicting this by basically accusing the West of causing the situation/ You are a loon, Rumpole. A fantasist loon.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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