They would have rarely eaten meat, given the productive requirement of hunting, as opposed to gathering - Most primitive tribes tend to consume small ratios of meat to vegetables/fruit.

This is a topic that I'm pretty interested in, so sorry if I bore on for a second...

Animals have, and have had, tremendous rights in history. Egyptians worshipped cats whilst enslaving huge populations of humans, Hindus worship cows whilst having a caste system. What this shows, to me, is there is no 'natural' hierarchy really, its normally just the perspective we're born with that we take on. Interestingly, very few societies think it appropriate to show kids the killing of animals, particularly in developed countries, and this is a very human thing. Again, does this challenge the idea that its biologically wired in to us to kill other animals? Possibly...

What we do know is that humans don't need meat. The correct levels of protein, zinc, iron, vitamin d, vitamin b12, are available outside meat and dairy. We now eat a s*** load more meat than we ever have, and this is only on the rise as the industrial development of the world increases. People go on about hunter gatherer days, well take a hunter gatherer down Croydon high street and he would probably see more meat than he'd eat in his entire life. Animals are actually b******s to catch if you haven't got a fence and a bolt gun.

And so the real question is, have we got it right now? How do we treat animals, and what effect does it have on us? Well I'd say we're wrong in every way. We eat twice as much meat in this country as we did 50 years ago, and the health impact is there for all to see. Obesity's through the roof, people are getting heart disease in their 40s.

Meanwhile, the environment's going to f*** and animal agriculture's the main cause. It contirbutes more CO2 than all transport combined, then you factor in water usage, nitrous oxide and methane emissions, deforestation, decoralisation and some reckon is as much as half the reason climate change is happening.

For me whats the most f***ed up is the amount of food we give to domesticated animals. About 40% of the grain in the world is given to animals. Meanwhile, half a billion people go to sleep hungry at night. We have countries running outa water yet we produce enough water for billions of domesticated cows, chickens etc etc. Like I say, that's f***ed up whichever way you look at it.

A lot of people think that those who stop eating meat and show concern for animals don't give a f*** about people and their welfare but when you look at the evidence it could be said that it's actually the people that are consuming meat that are the ones who are causing the greater problems for not only animals but people too.

And obviously the animals are getting a worse and worse deal. The demand for meat and dairy is leading to a need for greater supply, so the animals are given shorter lives, higher body protein levels, less and less room to grow, and less freedoms. At the minute, the rights of the average chicken include a tiny bit of sunlight, and that's about it. People don't really know how s*** farm conditions are unfortunately, partly cause most wouldnt wanna know, partly because if they did there would be a huge backlash imo. But there has been some great research done by animal rights charities on the matter.

One last point, to the fella who said about overpopulaton of humans. For me, it aint about trimming down, the whole universe involves expansion and contraction, but what keeps growing is what can keep itself stable, and not blow itself up.

We have enough land to grow enough food for a lot more people than we have at the moment, and enough water etc etc. But we're being f***ing stupid by creating societies where some people get it all and others get f*** all, and instead of eating food which is easy quick and cheap to grow, were dinin out on the hardest f***ing food of all to produce, meat.

A great point... animals are getting fed, housed, cleaned and getting, I would guess, a certain amount of healthcare on farms while many people struggle to get access to any of these.
Also, how many years would it take to grow certain amount of cows before you can slaughter them? Obviously they are forced to breed and then given chemicals to grow at unnatural rates - same as all other animals. How many edible grains/plants could be grown in that same amount of time? What about the amount of time, effort and resources used to raise the cows before slaughter compared to doing the same using plants/grains?

The more ethically the animal is raised before slaughter the more expensive the meat would cost so most people are buying cheap meat and how much would the price of meat have to go up to to ensure that all animals are treated humanely before they die?
What concerns would there be regarding the growing of plants/grains in comparison?

I'm not really that fussed about preaching a particular agenda here, people are smart enough to make their own minds up, I just wanted to give a different side of the argument you dont normally get because like i say this is a topic close to my heart. Knowledge is power as they say and I think we should all be clued up on what effect our life has on the world around us, and on where what we get is coming from.

Good grief, it must been boring at your end today.

I don't think its undesirable. Just that its something we do, more out of pleasure, convenience etc that's not necessarily good for us. A bit like smoking and drinking, but without the 'warnings' of the effects. We don't really make an informed decision. Certainly I wouldn't stop eating bacon because it increased rates of bowel and stomach cancer (especially as I smoke).

But like sugar, the amount of meat people eat is unlikely to be good for them, and we have whole industries that profit greatly. The Sugar and Meat industries are the tobacco companies of our age.

Of course I still smoke...

Agree with your post and especially each to their own philosophy although I do think it's important that people have an understanding of what does go into the process of how food gets on the plate and the effect on the environment... as for religious folk, it's strange because many are hoping for a peaceful world but think that animals will still be slaughtered by the millions in it. Some religious people are so closed minded it can be frustrating discussing the issue with them.... in spite of the environmental effects (even friends of the earth are running a meat free month now) and most environmentalists being ether vegetarian, vegan or eating very little meat a lot of religious people think that it's fine to eat animals (but by whose interpretation??) and will carry on eating them regardless of the consequences for animals, human health or the environment... it would make sense to include animals in any attempts to create a fairer and more peaceful world whether you are a follower of a particular religion or not.