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Dave Whelan
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 Stuk  Top half 21 Nov 14 3.19pm |
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Quote Ian J at 21 Nov 2014 2.31pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 2.20pm
I'm always amused by people who get offended on others behalf. From my experience the Chinese are the most racist lot going, closely followed by the Japanese. I used to have a Chinese secretary who lived in fear that her father would find out that she was seeing an English lad The worst example of racism (if you use the term in it's broadest sense to include religion) that I have come across recently was in the summer when England were playing cricket against India and Moeen Ali (British born pakistani) came out to bat for us and all of the (British born) Indians in the crowd started booing. That's not racism, it's national rivalry. The (british born, or not) Indians were supporting India, not England and certainly not an Englishman with pakistani heritage. A the Scotland v Ireland game last week, the Scots booed a Scottish born player representing Ireland instead. Or England v Ghana, when Welbeck made his debut, for just general dislike of what feels like someone turning their back on the country and/or heritage. Edited by Stuk (21 Nov 2014 3.25pm)
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| Pawson Palace Croydon 21 Nov 14 3.38pm |
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Quote Seth at 21 Nov 2014 3.19pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 2.20pm
I'm always amused by people who get offended on others behalf.
If a white person is with a black friend and the black friend gets called a "n****r" by someone and the white person doesn't like it, is he being "offended on someone else's behalf"? Were white people who campaigned against slavery being "offended on someone else's behalf"? Was Oskar Schindler "offended on someone else's behalf"? Was Nicholas Winton "offended on someone else's behalf"? Were any non-Jews who fought against the Nazis "offended on someone else's behalf"? If I object to my daughter being cat-called and leered at in the street am I "offended on someone else's behalf"? My friend has a son who is gay. He was once beaten up in a club for his sexuality. I was angry at that. Am I "offended on someone else's behalf"? If I campaign against animal cruelty am I "offended on someone else's behalf"? If you donate to a charity which helps starving children, are you "offended on someone else's behalf"? It seems that, according to the "offended on someone else's behalf" brigade, it's not right for anyone to empathise with or support someone who is suffering discrimination or violence. By this logic only Jews can protest at anti-semitism, only black people can fight racism and only gay people can campaign against homophobia. This is clearly a ridiculous position. As for Whelan and Mackay, they are welcome to each other. I feel sorry for the ordinary Wigan fans who must be cringing at the thought of their club being associated with these kind of outdated and racist attitudes.
Whelan saying chink in a generic context- where it's not specifically aimed at anyone person- and I think that is different. Had he said Ken Hom is a chink then that would be offensive. Again, as above I've been told as a white guy I have no rhythm...are you going to accuse my black team mates and black coach as being racist?
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| Midlands Eagle 21 Nov 14 3.52pm |
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Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 2.39pm
Quote Ian J at 21 Nov 2014 2.31pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 2.20pm
I'm always amused by people who get offended on others behalf. From my experience the Chinese are the most racist lot going, closely followed by the Japanese. I used to have a Chinese secretary who lived in fear that her father would find out that she was seeing an English lad The worst example of racism (if you use the term in it's broadest sense to include religion) that I have come across recently was in the summer when England were playing cricket against India and Moeen Ali (British born pakistani) came out to bat for us and all of the (British born) Indians in the crowd started booing.
For me the worst was watching Valencia play Real Betis years back and Patrick Klivert came on on Valencia and the crowd made really bad monkey noises. Now I can "understand" abusing an opposition player but your own? Bet they would have been cheering if he scored the winner. As it happened Pablo Aimar got the goal in a s***e game lol. Hand on heart, I've never heard one piece of racist chanting at football in the UK. I do believe we are one, if not the most tolerant countries in Europe.
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Seth  On a pale blue dot 21 Nov 14 3.56pm |
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Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 3.38pm
Quote Seth at 21 Nov 2014 3.19pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 2.20pm
I'm always amused by people who get offended on others behalf.
If a white person is with a black friend and the black friend gets called a "n****r" by someone and the white person doesn't like it, is he being "offended on someone else's behalf"? Were white people who campaigned against slavery being "offended on someone else's behalf"? Was Oskar Schindler "offended on someone else's behalf"? Was Nicholas Winton "offended on someone else's behalf"? Were any non-Jews who fought against the Nazis "offended on someone else's behalf"? If I object to my daughter being cat-called and leered at in the street am I "offended on someone else's behalf"? My friend has a son who is gay. He was once beaten up in a club for his sexuality. I was angry at that. Am I "offended on someone else's behalf"? If I campaign against animal cruelty am I "offended on someone else's behalf"? If you donate to a charity which helps starving children, are you "offended on someone else's behalf"? It seems that, according to the "offended on someone else's behalf" brigade, it's not right for anyone to empathise with or support someone who is suffering discrimination or violence. By this logic only Jews can protest at anti-semitism, only black people can fight racism and only gay people can campaign against homophobia. This is clearly a ridiculous position. As for Whelan and Mackay, they are welcome to each other. I feel sorry for the ordinary Wigan fans who must be cringing at the thought of their club being associated with these kind of outdated and racist attitudes.
Whelan saying chink in a generic context- where it's not specifically aimed at anyone person- and I think that is different. Had he said Ken Hom is a chink then that would be offensive. Again, as above I've been told as a white guy I have no rhythm...are you going to accuse my black team mates and black coach as being racist?
As for your last point, a couple of things come to mind: one definition of racism is "prejudice + power". Historically white people have had power over black people and have used that power to create a society based on discrimination. Some people therefore say that black people, being in a position of little power, cannot be racist. I don't agree with that in entirety, but do agree that anti-black racism from whites carries more weight in a historic and societal context than the other way round. I would also ask: were you offended by it? If so, maybe you should take it up with your coach. If it's just banter and you genuinely don't mind, then I'd advise you to ignore it and get on with your life. But it's to do with how you experience it rather than whether it fits into your definition of racist or not. Much like the police count crimes as "hate crimes" depending on how the victim experienced it.
"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" |
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| Midlands Eagle 21 Nov 14 3.59pm |
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Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 3.38pm
Whelan saying chink in a generic context- where it's not specifically aimed at anyone person- and I think that is different. Had he said Ken Hom is a chink then that would be offensive.
I used to be a regular on a forum dealing with a lot of Japanese equipment and most people referred to the Japanese as Japs which is a word that they find offensive but as the word was used in all innocence as the users were unaware of it's significance it was also not racist
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| Midlands Eagle 21 Nov 14 4.03pm |
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Quote Seth at 21 Nov 2014 3.56pm
a couple of things come to mind: one definition of racism is "prejudice + power". Historically white people have had power over black people and have used that power to create a society based on discrimination. Some people therefore say that black people, being in a position of little power, cannot be racist. I'm not sure than Zimbabweans would agree with you and interestingly the most powerful man in the world is black.
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| Seth On a pale blue dot 21 Nov 14 4.07pm |
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Quote Ian J at 21 Nov 2014 3.59pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 3.38pm
Whelan saying chink in a generic context- where it's not specifically aimed at anyone person- and I think that is different. Had he said Ken Hom is a chink then that would be offensive.
I used to be a regular on a forum dealing with a lot of Japanese equipment and most people referred to the Japanese as Japs which is a word that they find offensive but as the word was used in all innocence as the users were unaware of it's significance it was also not racist Unfortunately for Whelan, and the people on the forum you mention, it's not up to them whether a word is racist or not - it's up to the people the word refers to. Chinese people think "chink" is racist, just like Asians think "p*ki" is racist, Japanese people think "Jap" is racist and black people think "n****r" is racist. Therefore they are racist and ignorance of that fact is not a valid defence.
"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" |
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| Mapletree Croydon 21 Nov 14 4.07pm |
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Quote Ian J at 21 Nov 2014 3.52pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 2.39pm
Quote Ian J at 21 Nov 2014 2.31pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 2.20pm
I'm always amused by people who get offended on others behalf. From my experience the Chinese are the most racist lot going, closely followed by the Japanese. I used to have a Chinese secretary who lived in fear that her father would find out that she was seeing an English lad The worst example of racism (if you use the term in it's broadest sense to include religion) that I have come across recently was in the summer when England were playing cricket against India and Moeen Ali (British born pakistani) came out to bat for us and all of the (British born) Indians in the crowd started booing.
For me the worst was watching Valencia play Real Betis years back and Patrick Klivert came on on Valencia and the crowd made really bad monkey noises. Now I can "understand" abusing an opposition player but your own? Bet they would have been cheering if he scored the winner. As it happened Pablo Aimar got the goal in a s***e game lol. Hand on heart, I've never heard one piece of racist chanting at football in the UK. I do believe we are one, if not the most tolerant countries in Europe.
Edited by Mapletree (21 Nov 2014 4.08pm)
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| Seth On a pale blue dot 21 Nov 14 4.09pm |
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Quote Ian J at 21 Nov 2014 4.03pm
Quote Seth at 21 Nov 2014 3.56pm
a couple of things come to mind: one definition of racism is "prejudice + power". Historically white people have had power over black people and have used that power to create a society based on discrimination. Some people therefore say that black people, being in a position of little power, cannot be racist. I'm not sure than Zimbabweans would agree with you and interestingly the most powerful man in the world is black.
"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" |
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| Mapletree Croydon 21 Nov 14 4.10pm |
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Quote Seth at 21 Nov 2014 4.07pm
Quote Ian J at 21 Nov 2014 3.59pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 3.38pm
Whelan saying chink in a generic context- where it's not specifically aimed at anyone person- and I think that is different. Had he said Ken Hom is a chink then that would be offensive.
I used to be a regular on a forum dealing with a lot of Japanese equipment and most people referred to the Japanese as Japs which is a word that they find offensive but as the word was used in all innocence as the users were unaware of it's significance it was also not racist Unfortunately for Whelan, and the people on the forum you mention, it's not up to them whether a word is racist or not - it's up to the people the word refers to. Chinese people think "chink" is racist, just like Asians think "p*ki" is racist, Japanese people think "Jap" is racist and black people think "n****r" is racist. Therefore they are racist and ignorance of that fact is not a valid defence.
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| Pawson Palace Croydon 21 Nov 14 4.12pm |
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Quote Seth at 21 Nov 2014 3.56pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 3.38pm
Quote Seth at 21 Nov 2014 3.19pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 2.20pm
I'm always amused by people who get offended on others behalf.
If a white person is with a black friend and the black friend gets called a "n****r" by someone and the white person doesn't like it, is he being "offended on someone else's behalf"? Were white people who campaigned against slavery being "offended on someone else's behalf"? Was Oskar Schindler "offended on someone else's behalf"? Was Nicholas Winton "offended on someone else's behalf"? Were any non-Jews who fought against the Nazis "offended on someone else's behalf"? If I object to my daughter being cat-called and leered at in the street am I "offended on someone else's behalf"? My friend has a son who is gay. He was once beaten up in a club for his sexuality. I was angry at that. Am I "offended on someone else's behalf"? If I campaign against animal cruelty am I "offended on someone else's behalf"? If you donate to a charity which helps starving children, are you "offended on someone else's behalf"? It seems that, according to the "offended on someone else's behalf" brigade, it's not right for anyone to empathise with or support someone who is suffering discrimination or violence. By this logic only Jews can protest at anti-semitism, only black people can fight racism and only gay people can campaign against homophobia. This is clearly a ridiculous position. As for Whelan and Mackay, they are welcome to each other. I feel sorry for the ordinary Wigan fans who must be cringing at the thought of their club being associated with these kind of outdated and racist attitudes.
Whelan saying chink in a generic context- where it's not specifically aimed at anyone person- and I think that is different. Had he said Ken Hom is a chink then that would be offensive. Again, as above I've been told as a white guy I have no rhythm...are you going to accuse my black team mates and black coach as being racist?
As for your last point, a couple of things come to mind: one definition of racism is "prejudice + power". Historically white people have had power over black people and have used that power to create a society based on discrimination. Some people therefore say that black people, being in a position of little power, cannot be racist. I don't agree with that in entirety, but do agree that anti-black racism from whites carries more weight in a historic and societal context than the other way round. I would also ask: were you offended by it? If so, maybe you should take it up with your coach. If it's just banter and you genuinely don't mind, then I'd advise you to ignore it and get on with your life. But it's to do with how you experience it rather than whether it fits into your definition of racist or not. Much like the police count crimes as "hate crimes" depending on how the victim experienced it.
As for the Jew comment, he said they love money, English people love money, we all love money. How is that bad? He hasn't singled anyone out! Well by what you're saying- you should go and report them for being racist because you should find that offensive on my behalf. That is no different to what Whelan has said, so if you find him racist you find them racist there is no distinction. As for saying minorities can't be racist that's beyond ironic. Being racist is mistreating people on basis of their colour or creed. So to then say anyone who isn't white can't be racist is treating white people differently which is surely racist in itself as everyone is not being treated the same.
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 Hrolf The Ganger 21 Nov 14 4.14pm |
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Quote Mapletree at 21 Nov 2014 4.10pm
Quote Seth at 21 Nov 2014 4.07pm
Quote Ian J at 21 Nov 2014 3.59pm
Quote Pawson Palace at 21 Nov 2014 3.38pm
Whelan saying chink in a generic context- where it's not specifically aimed at anyone person- and I think that is different. Had he said Ken Hom is a chink then that would be offensive.
I used to be a regular on a forum dealing with a lot of Japanese equipment and most people referred to the Japanese as Japs which is a word that they find offensive but as the word was used in all innocence as the users were unaware of it's significance it was also not racist Unfortunately for Whelan, and the people on the forum you mention, it's not up to them whether a word is racist or not - it's up to the people the word refers to. Chinese people think "chink" is racist, just like Asians think "p*ki" is racist, Japanese people think "Jap" is racist and black people think "n****r" is racist. Therefore they are racist and ignorance of that fact is not a valid defence.
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