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Stirlingsays 21 Dec 19 5.55am | |
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President Trump has been impeached on ridiculous charges. Yet Republican supporters haven't been destroying property or looting or burning cars. Mmmmm....I suppose that's because they aren't overly emotional Democrat supporters.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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cryrst The garden of England 21 Dec 19 7.14am | |
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In the next phase of the comedy gold of Democrat beliefs do the republicans get the chance to call or force witnesses to give evidence?
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Stirlingsays 21 Dec 19 7.48am | |
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Originally posted by cryrst
In the next phase of the comedy gold of Democrat beliefs do the republicans get the chance to call or force witnesses to give evidence? It's going to be interesting, I think the Democrats have overplayed their hand with the 'floating voter' on this one....it's red meat to their base.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Badger11 Beckenham 21 Dec 19 1.30pm | |
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I suppose the two questions to ask are Did Trump do anything wrong? and if he did does it warrant impeachment? I was listening to a constitutional expert who was of the opinion that Trump may have done something wrong (morally yes legally maybe) but that it didn't warrant impeachment. His view was that impeachment was meant to prevent the most serious of crimes by a president e.g. attempting the over throw of the government and that both Trump and previously Clinton's alleged crimes simply do not meet that criteria. There are other ways of censoring a President who may have behaved badly. Impeachment is pushing the nuclear button before you have tried any alternatives.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Dec 19 7.21pm | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
I suppose the two questions to ask are Did Trump do anything wrong? and if he did does it warrant impeachment? I personally fail to see how anyone is able to conclude that Trump hasn't done anything wrong as he openly does such things on a very regular basis. Whether he is guilty of "high crimes and misdemeanours" is for the Senate to determine and with the super majority demanded and the level of pre-judgement going on that seems highly unlikely. That he has a case to answer though seems obvious as anyone who actually watched the hearings would know. I was listening to a constitutional expert who was of the opinion that Trump may have done something wrong (morally yes legally maybe) but that it didn't warrant impeachment. His view was that impeachment was meant to prevent the most serious of crimes by a president e.g. attempting the over throw of the government and that both Trump and previously Clinton's alleged crimes simply do not meet that criteria. Not his call. That's for the Senate. There are other ways of censoring a President who may have behaved badly. Impeachment is pushing the nuclear button before you have tried any alternatives. Not really until he leaves office and by then it's too late.
Whether this is a politically advantageous move is a very open question given the way the right are presenting it. The Trump "base" is predictably rock solid as Trump has already achieved a God like status in their eyes and he can not do anything wrong. The bulk of the GOP are now in fear of that base and dare not express any doubts let alone contemplate voting against him. However, I don't think the Democrats had any other choice if they were to try to do their constitutional duty. They may well suffer at the polls as a consequence so my cynical mind wonders if this was all actually planned by Trump's team. Politics in the USA is in a very bad place.
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cryrst The garden of England 23 Dec 19 9.00pm | |
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The Senate hearing is different in operation.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Dec 19 9.36pm | |
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Originally posted by cryrst
The Senate hearing is different in operation. All Senators can question, not just Republicans. The witnesses who should be called are those with direct knowledge of who issued the instructions and why they did so. That includes the request to investigate the Bidens, the suspension of aid, the promise of a WH meeting and the refusal to allow them to give evidence to the House committee. Each and every staff member, senior and junior, current and former, with such knowledge should be put under oath and questioned. If Trump has nothing to hide then refusing makes no sense as it would exonerate him. Refusing looks like, and almost certainly is, further obstruction of justice. Which he is already charged with.
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cryrst The garden of England 23 Dec 19 10.22pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
All Senators can question, not just Republicans. The witnesses who should be called are those with direct knowledge of who issued the instructions and why they did so. That includes the request to investigate the Bidens, the suspension of aid, the promise of a WH meeting and the refusal to allow them to give evidence to the House committee. Each and every staff member, senior and junior, current and former, with such knowledge should be put under oath and questioned. If Trump has nothing to hide then refusing makes no sense as it would exonerate him. Refusing looks like, and almost certainly is, further obstruction of justice. Which he is already charged with. Surely the whole reason behind trumps alledged offence was questioning junior Biden's affair with a certain company.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Dec 19 10.56pm | |
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quote=cryrst;3496174] Surely the whole reason behind trumps alledged offence was questioning junior Biden's affair with a certain company. Disprove this and trump is guilty. The reason for the impeachment is twofold. Firstly why did he withhold aid and offer a WH meeting in an effort to get an investigation into the Bidens? Was this because he suspected corruption or whether he wanted to get some dirt to use in his reelection campaign? What Junr Biden did or didn't do, is immaterial to this. The second is why he refused to allow his staff to give evidence, thus potentially obstructing justice. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (23 Dec 2019 10.58pm)
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cryrst The garden of England 24 Dec 19 7.59am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
quote=cryrst;3496174] Surely the whole reason behind trumps alledged offence was questioning junior Biden's affair with a certain company. Disprove this and trump is guilty. The reason for the impeachment is twofold. Firstly why did he withhold aid and offer a WH meeting in an effort to get an investigation into the Bidens? Was this because he suspected corruption or whether he wanted to get some dirt to use in his reelection campaign? What Junr Biden did or didn't do, is immaterial to this. The second is why he refused to allow his staff to give evidence, thus potentially obstructing justice. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (23 Dec 2019 10.58pm) He didnt withhold the aid.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Dec 19 10.13am | |
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Originally posted by cryrst
He didnt withhold the aid. As it was released immediately AFTER it became public it had been withheld that actually adds circumstantial evidence. This is the thing. How do you or anyone else know? Those that do have been instructed not to testify. Reading and watching even you have to admit hunter Biden's position within that company seems somewhat Irrelevant. Biden has admitted that as the appearance of his son's appointment looks questionable that, in hindsight, it looks to be a mistake. However my understanding is that many of those with knowledge of the events have said that he has no case to answer and the accusations are all political mud slinging. It is however a totally separate issue. If evidence exists of anything deserving investigation then let the appropriate authorities take the appropriate actions and due process proceed. Trump dealing directly with another President is NOT appropriate. Trumps staff had an option to appear and they chose not to for whatever reasons. They were instructed not to. If they were that important they could have been legally obliged to attend. In some cases subpoenas have been issued but not complied with. Legal actions are underway but take months to be heard. As they would then be appealed all of this means that the impeachment trial would be over before decisions are made. That being utilised of course would mean the subject matter of the bidens could also have been bound legally to attend. Untrue as it is unrelated. Maybe this would all be cleared up by now if that were the case. Untrue. Diversion. I'm sure some shredders somewhere have been doing overtime though. Maybe but duplicates have a habit of turning up in this age of electronic documents and verbal testimony is what is really important. All of this impeachment is on the primary evidence of an overhead phone call. On one of the charges a call overheard by several, confirmed by a partial transcript and circumstantial evidence which includes the refusal of those with direct knowledge to testify. On the second charge the evidence of obstruction is obvious and in plain sight.
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cryrst The garden of England 24 Dec 19 4.09pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
So it is circumstantial always around then.
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