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carlonoil Naples 19 Oct 16 8.42pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Where did you hear/read that a Corbyn government would be an old style socialist regime? What do you mean by the term? Or are you just using emotio-semantic twaddle again. Edited by nickgusset (19 Oct 2016 7.09pm) I can’t see how you can interpret what I said as meaning that Corbyn wants another referendum. I accept that he was hypocritical during the campaign, pretending that he supported Remain although he has a chequered history of being anti-EU. I described the Labour Party as “Corbyn led” because he is the leader of the Labour Party! However, I do accept that many others far to the left of him seem to have a good deal of involvement in what passes as leadership in the party. The point I was making was that many on the left who want another referendum cite various damaging effects on the economy if we leave. I was merely pointing out that similar effects could happen if Corbyn is elected to government and tries to impose his old style, doomed to failure, socialist policies on us. You don’t think his policies are ‘socialist’, what are they then? At the Labour Party conference McDonnell said “in this party you no longer have to whisper its name, it’s called Socialism”. As for the “wide range of ideas and ideologies”, they include Paul Mason’s – a former member of the Trotskyist Workers’ Power Group, Andrew Murray’s – former chair of the Stop the War Coalition (which praised the ‘internationalism and solidarity of IS) and member of the Communist Party of Britain, an apologist for Stalin and North Korea. Seumas Milne’s – who wrote a manifesto supporting Chairman Mao while at Winchester College and is an apologist for the Soviet Union. Edited by carlonoil (19 Oct 2016 8.44pm)
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carlonoil

Naples 19 Oct 16 8.42pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Where did you hear/read that a Corbyn government would be an old style socialist regime? What do you mean by the term? Or are you just using emotio-semantic twaddle again.

Edited by nickgusset (19 Oct 2016 7.09pm)

I can’t see how you can interpret what I said as meaning that Corbyn wants another referendum. I accept that he was hypocritical during the campaign, pretending that he supported Remain although he has a chequered history of being anti-EU. I described the Labour Party as “Corbyn led” because he is the leader of the Labour Party! However, I do accept that many others far to the left of him seem to have a good deal of involvement in what passes as leadership in the party. The point I was making was that many on the left who want another referendum cite various damaging effects on the economy if we leave. I was merely pointing out that similar effects could happen if Corbyn is elected to government and tries to impose his old style, doomed to failure, socialist policies on us. You don’t think his policies are ‘socialist’, what are they then? At the Labour Party conference McDonnell said “in this party you no longer have to whisper its name, it’s called Socialism”.
As for the “wide range of ideas and ideologies”, they include Paul Mason’s – a former member of the Trotskyist Workers’ Power Group, Andrew Murray’s – former chair of the Stop the War Coalition (which praised the ‘internationalism and solidarity of IS) and member of the Communist Party of Britain, an apologist for Stalin and North Korea. Seumas Milne’s – who wrote a manifesto supporting Chairman Mao while at Winchester College and is an apologist for the Soviet Union.

Edited by carlonoil (19 Oct 2016 8.44pm)

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 19 Oct 16 9.43pm
Originally posted by Cucking Funt So what is it, exactly, that us morons who voted to leave don't understand? How are you cleverer than the 52% of the turnout? I no more think that those who voted to leave are morons than I think that those who voted remain are not. I don't think anyone truly understood all the issues, and I include most of the politicians in that. There was far too much politics, far too much point scoring and far too much naked ambition on display. The very use of the term "project fear" says all that needs to be said about the campaigns. Many people voted on emotions and not on facts. Many raised protests about austerity and immigration. Too many people these days distrust experts in any sphere and they certainly did about the impact of leaving the EU, when they were never more needed to be trusted. The overwhelming opinion of the experts, now being confirmed by events, was that leaving would bring a big economic cost. All that the leavers cling to is the hope that everything will be OK in the end, without a shred of evidence to justify it. Far too many were prepared to sacrifice the futures of the coming generations on the altars of their personal prejudices. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 19 Oct 16 9.43pm

Originally posted by Cucking Funt

So what is it, exactly, that us morons who voted to leave don't understand? How are you cleverer than the 52% of the turnout?

I no more think that those who voted to leave are morons than I think that those who voted remain are not.

I don't think anyone truly understood all the issues, and I include most of the politicians in that. There was far too much politics, far too much point scoring and far too much naked ambition on display. The very use of the term "project fear" says all that needs to be said about the campaigns.

Many people voted on emotions and not on facts. Many raised protests about austerity and immigration. Too many people these days distrust experts in any sphere and they certainly did about the impact of leaving the EU, when they were never more needed to be trusted. The overwhelming opinion of the experts, now being confirmed by events, was that leaving would bring a big economic cost. All that the leavers cling to is the hope that everything will be OK in the end, without a shred of evidence to justify it. Far too many were prepared to sacrifice the futures of the coming generations on the altars of their personal prejudices.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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matt_himself Matataland 19 Oct 16 9.57pm
Originally posted by DanH If I polled my friends about an important life decision and it came out 52%/48% I'm not sure it would hold any weight on my ultimate decision. Be interesting to know what the reaction would have been if it were the same margin the other way. There would be less arse holes going on Facebook everyday with dire warnings of impending doom. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 19 Oct 16 9.57pm

Originally posted by DanH

If I polled my friends about an important life decision and it came out 52%/48% I'm not sure it would hold any weight on my ultimate decision.

Be interesting to know what the reaction would have been if it were the same margin the other way.

There would be less arse holes going on Facebook everyday with dire warnings of impending doom.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 19 Oct 16 10.34pm
Originally posted by carlonoil I can’t see how you can interpret what I said as meaning that Corbyn wants another referendum. I accept that he was hypocritical during the campaign, pretending that he supported Remain although he has a chequered history of being anti-EU. I described the Labour Party as “Corbyn led” because he is the leader of the Labour Party! However, I do accept that many others far to the left of him seem to have a good deal of involvement in what passes as leadership in the party. The point I was making was that many on the left who want another referendum cite various damaging effects on the economy if we leave. I was merely pointing out that similar effects could happen if Corbyn is elected to government and tries to impose his old style, doomed to failure, socialist policies on us. You don’t think his policies are ‘socialist’, what are they then? At the Labour Party conference McDonnell said “in this party you no longer have to whisper its name, it’s called Socialism”. As for the “wide range of ideas and ideologies”, they include Paul Mason’s – a former member of the Trotskyist Workers’ Power Group, Andrew Murray’s – former chair of the Stop the War Coalition (which praised the ‘internationalism and solidarity of IS) and member of the Communist Party of Britain, an apologist for Stalin and North Korea. Seumas Milne’s – who wrote a manifesto supporting Chairman Mao while at Winchester College and is an apologist for the Soviet Union. Edited by carlonoil (19 Oct 2016 8.44pm) That was one idiot at one meeting who proposed that and he was roundly shouted down for it. You can't use one person to p paint a whole organisation! Hardly the That's the problem, you can't see how things get exaggerated before they become old wives tales. If it were the GS what said it, it would be a different kettle of fish. Edited by nickgusset (20 Oct 2016 12.09am)
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 19 Oct 16 10.34pm

Originally posted by carlonoil

I can’t see how you can interpret what I said as meaning that Corbyn wants another referendum. I accept that he was hypocritical during the campaign, pretending that he supported Remain although he has a chequered history of being anti-EU. I described the Labour Party as “Corbyn led” because he is the leader of the Labour Party! However, I do accept that many others far to the left of him seem to have a good deal of involvement in what passes as leadership in the party. The point I was making was that many on the left who want another referendum cite various damaging effects on the economy if we leave. I was merely pointing out that similar effects could happen if Corbyn is elected to government and tries to impose his old style, doomed to failure, socialist policies on us. You don’t think his policies are ‘socialist’, what are they then? At the Labour Party conference McDonnell said “in this party you no longer have to whisper its name, it’s called Socialism”.
As for the “wide range of ideas and ideologies”, they include Paul Mason’s – a former member of the Trotskyist Workers’ Power Group, Andrew Murray’s – former chair of the Stop the War Coalition (which praised the ‘internationalism and solidarity of IS) and member of the Communist Party of Britain, an apologist for Stalin and North Korea. Seumas Milne’s – who wrote a manifesto supporting Chairman Mao while at Winchester College and is an apologist for the Soviet Union.

Edited by carlonoil (19 Oct 2016 8.44pm)

That was one idiot at one meeting who proposed that and he was roundly shouted down for it. You can't use one person to p paint a whole organisation! Hardly the That's the problem, you can't see how things get exaggerated before they become old wives tales. If it were the GS what said it, it would be a different kettle of fish.

Edited by nickgusset (20 Oct 2016 12.09am)

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carlonoil Naples 20 Oct 16 8.16am
Originally posted by nickgusset That was one idiot at one meeting who proposed that and he was roundly shouted down for it. You can't use one person to p paint a whole organisation! Hardly the That's the problem, you can't see how things get exaggerated before they become old wives tales. If it were the GS what said it, it would be a different kettle of fish. Edited by nickgusset (20 Oct 2016 12.09am) A one-off was it? Well, Green Party leader, Caroline Lucas left the organisation when, after the Paris atrocities, they said the French had: "reaped the whirlwind of western support for extremist violence in Middle East". They also compared IS to the International Brigades of the Spanish Civil War. None of this should be a surprise as they are largely led by a bunch of far-left, anti-west, anti-democracy communists from such odious organisations as: Labour Left Briefing, Communist Party of Britain, Communist Party of Great Britain (Python comes true), Alliance for Working Liberty, Muslim Association of Britain, Socialist Workers Party.
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carlonoil

Naples 20 Oct 16 8.16am

Originally posted by nickgusset

Edited by nickgusset (20 Oct 2016 12.09am)

A one-off was it? Well, Green Party leader, Caroline Lucas left the organisation when, after the Paris atrocities, they said the French had: "reaped the whirlwind of western support for extremist violence in Middle East". They also compared IS to the International Brigades of the Spanish Civil War. None of this should be a surprise as they are largely led by a bunch of far-left, anti-west, anti-democracy communists from such odious organisations as: Labour Left Briefing, Communist Party of Britain, Communist Party of Great Britain (Python comes true), Alliance for Working Liberty, Muslim Association of Britain, Socialist Workers Party.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Oct 16 8.43am
Originally posted by carlonoil A one-off was it? Well, Green Party leader, Caroline Lucas left the organisation when, after the Paris atrocities, they said the French had: "reaped the whirlwind of western support for extremist violence in Middle East". They also compared IS to the International Brigades of the Spanish Civil War. None of this should be a surprise as they are largely led by a bunch of far-left, anti-west, anti-democracy communists from such odious organisations as: Labour Left Briefing, Communist Party of Britain, Communist Party of Great Britain (Python comes true), Alliance for Working Liberty, Muslim Association of Britain, Socialist Workers Party. I've actually written about education for labour left briefing. They're a nice bunch, why do you emotively call them odious? All of the organisations you mention are tiny and will have barely any influence. I know the alliance for workers liberty amounts to no more than about fifty people. It's good to see they are reunited on a cause rather than engage in factional infighting. But you are focusing your ire on a tiny tiny fraction of the membership of the biggest member led political party in Europe
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Oct 16 8.43am

Originally posted by carlonoil

I've actually written about education for labour left briefing. They're a nice bunch, why do you emotively call them odious?

All of the organisations you mention are tiny and will have barely any influence. I know the alliance for workers liberty amounts to no more than about fifty people.

It's good to see they are reunited on a cause rather than engage in factional infighting.

But you are focusing your ire on a tiny tiny fraction of the membership of the biggest member led political party in Europe

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paperhat croydon 20 Oct 16 8.51am
Originally posted by nickgusset I've actually written about education for labour left briefing. They're a nice bunch, why do you emotively call them odious? All of the organisations you mention are tiny and will have barely any influence. I know the alliance for workers liberty amounts to no more than about fifty people. It's good to see they are reunited on a cause rather than engage in factional infighting. But you are focusing your ire on a tiny tiny fraction of the membership of the biggest member led political party in Europe yup, led by one of the biggest members around for sure. Clinton is Clinton. I have known him for a long time, I know his mother... Simon Jordan
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paperhat

croydon 20 Oct 16 8.51am

Originally posted by nickgusset

I've actually written about education for labour left briefing. They're a nice bunch, why do you emotively call them odious?

All of the organisations you mention are tiny and will have barely any influence. I know the alliance for workers liberty amounts to no more than about fifty people.

It's good to see they are reunited on a cause rather than engage in factional infighting.

But you are focusing your ire on a tiny tiny fraction of the membership of the biggest member led political party in Europe

yup, led by one of the biggest members around for sure.

Clinton is Clinton. I have known him for a long time, I know his mother... Simon Jordan

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carlonoil Naples 20 Oct 16 8.55am
Originally posted by nickgusset I've actually written about education for labour left briefing. They're a nice bunch, why do you emotively call them odious? All of the organisations you mention are tiny and will have barely any influence. I know the alliance for workers liberty amounts to no more than about fifty people. It's good to see they are reunited on a cause rather than engage in factional infighting. But you are focusing your ire on a tiny tiny fraction of the membership of the biggest member led political party in Europe Why do I call communists odious? Because I think that communists are odious. There are those in your 'tiny tiny fraction' that are close to Corbyn, who are odious.
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carlonoil

Naples 20 Oct 16 8.55am

Originally posted by nickgusset

I've actually written about education for labour left briefing. They're a nice bunch, why do you emotively call them odious?

All of the organisations you mention are tiny and will have barely any influence. I know the alliance for workers liberty amounts to no more than about fifty people.

It's good to see they are reunited on a cause rather than engage in factional infighting.

But you are focusing your ire on a tiny tiny fraction of the membership of the biggest member led political party in Europe

Why do I call communists odious? Because I think that communists are odious.
There are those in your 'tiny tiny fraction' that are close to Corbyn, who are odious.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Oct 16 12.51pm
Originally posted by carlonoil Why do I call communists odious? Because I think that communists are odious. There are those in your 'tiny tiny fraction' that are close to Corbyn, who are odious. Fair enough, that's your opinion. Why would communists be interested in democratic Socialism, they're entirely different things. How do you feel about Osborne cosying up to Communist China? How many of the Labour membership are Communist? Do we need a Mccarthy esque watch hunt to root them out. Odious cunds the lot of em eh. Edited by nickgusset (20 Oct 2016 12.52pm)
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Oct 16 12.51pm

Originally posted by carlonoil

Why do I call communists odious? Because I think that communists are odious.
There are those in your 'tiny tiny fraction' that are close to Corbyn, who are odious.

Fair enough, that's your opinion.
Why would communists be interested in democratic Socialism, they're entirely different things.

How do you feel about Osborne cosying up to Communist China?

How many of the Labour membership are Communist? Do we need a Mccarthy esque watch hunt to root them out.

Odious cunds the lot of em eh.

Edited by nickgusset (20 Oct 2016 12.52pm)

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carlonoil Naples 20 Oct 16 1.13pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Fair enough, that's your opinion. Why would communists be interested in democratic Socialism, they're entirely different things. How do you feel about Osborne cosying up to Communist China? How many of the Labour membership are Communist? Do we need a Mccarthy esque watch hunt to root them out. Odious cunds the lot of em eh. Edited by nickgusset (20 Oct 2016 12.52pm) The following are the key policies of the Communist Party of Britain. How many of them do you disagree with? • Redistribute wealth from the rich and big business to working people and their families with a wealth tax, higher corporation tax, cuts in VAT and higher pensions and social benefits. • Set the national minimum wage at half median male earnings rising to two-thirds, with no exemptions, and enforce equal pay through compulsory pay audits. • Immediately restore the link between the state retirement pension and earnings at its original value and introduce a second state pension which includes contributions from employers and the state. • Halt all forms of privatisation and invest in public services and their staff, with a massive programme in particular to build more council and sheltered housing. • Integrate all religious, private, trust and city academy schools into a unified secular education system under democratic local control. • Protect and develop manufacturing industry through public investment, measures against the export of jobs and capital, and expanding fair trade with People's China and other developing countries. • Restore public ownership in the energy and transport sectors – including the electricity, gas, coal, water and railway industries – so that we can plan to meet future needs by developing clean coal technology and tidal, solar and offshore wind power. • Match public subsidies to failing private companies with a public shareholding and take banking and key industries such as pharmaceuticals and armaments into democratic public ownership. • Cut military spending to average European levels, switch military R&D and production to meeting social needs and scrap plans to replace Trident with a new nuclear weapons system. • Oppose all steps towards a military, monopoly capitalist United States of Europe including an EU constitution, the EU services directive and EU labour law reform. • Repeal all anti-trade union, anti-democratic and racist immigration laws with full employment rights and trade union participation for migrant workers. • Strengthen the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly and restore powers and resources to local government. • Abolish the House of Lords, break up the media monopolies, scrap plans for ID cards and bring the police and intelligence services under democratic control. • Cancel all Third World debt, promote genuine trade-and-aid policies and oppose the GATS plan to privatise public services across the world.
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carlonoil

Naples 20 Oct 16 1.13pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Fair enough, that's your opinion.
Why would communists be interested in democratic Socialism, they're entirely different things.

How do you feel about Osborne cosying up to Communist China?

How many of the Labour membership are Communist? Do we need a Mccarthy esque watch hunt to root them out.

Odious cunds the lot of em eh.

Edited by nickgusset (20 Oct 2016 12.52pm)

The following are the key policies of the Communist Party of Britain. How many of them do you disagree with?

• Redistribute wealth from the rich and big business to working people and their families with a wealth tax, higher corporation tax, cuts in VAT and higher pensions and social benefits.

• Set the national minimum wage at half median male earnings rising to two-thirds, with no exemptions, and enforce equal pay through compulsory pay audits.

• Immediately restore the link between the state retirement pension and earnings at its original value and introduce a second state pension which includes contributions from employers and the state.

• Halt all forms of privatisation and invest in public services and their staff, with a massive programme in particular to build more council and sheltered housing.

• Integrate all religious, private, trust and city academy schools into a unified secular education system under democratic local control.

• Protect and develop manufacturing industry through public investment, measures against the export of jobs and capital, and expanding fair trade with People's China and other developing countries.

• Restore public ownership in the energy and transport sectors – including the electricity, gas, coal, water and railway industries – so that we can plan to meet future needs by developing clean coal technology and tidal, solar and offshore wind power.

• Match public subsidies to failing private companies with a public shareholding and take banking and key industries such as pharmaceuticals and armaments into democratic public ownership.

• Cut military spending to average European levels, switch military R&D and production to meeting social needs and scrap plans to replace Trident with a new nuclear weapons system.

• Oppose all steps towards a military, monopoly capitalist United States of Europe including an EU constitution, the EU services directive and EU labour law reform.

• Repeal all anti-trade union, anti-democratic and racist immigration laws with full employment rights and trade union participation for migrant workers.

• Strengthen the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly and restore powers and resources to local government.

• Abolish the House of Lords, break up the media monopolies, scrap plans for ID cards and bring the police and intelligence services under democratic control.

• Cancel all Third World debt, promote genuine trade-and-aid policies and oppose the GATS plan to privatise public services across the world.

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Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 20 Oct 16 2.08pm
Originally posted by carlonoil The following are the key policies of the Communist Party of Britain. How many of them do you disagree with? • Redistribute wealth from the rich and big business to working people and their families with a wealth tax, higher corporation tax, cuts in VAT and higher pensions and social benefits. • Set the national minimum wage at half median male earnings rising to two-thirds, with no exemptions, and enforce equal pay through compulsory pay audits. • Immediately restore the link between the state retirement pension and earnings at its original value and introduce a second state pension which includes contributions from employers and the state. • Halt all forms of privatisation and invest in public services and their staff, with a massive programme in particular to build more council and sheltered housing. • Integrate all religious, private, trust and city academy schools into a unified secular education system under democratic local control. • Protect and develop manufacturing industry through public investment, measures against the export of jobs and capital, and expanding fair trade with People's China and other developing countries. • Restore public ownership in the energy and transport sectors – including the electricity, gas, coal, water and railway industries – so that we can plan to meet future needs by developing clean coal technology and tidal, solar and offshore wind power. • Match public subsidies to failing private companies with a public shareholding and take banking and key industries such as pharmaceuticals and armaments into democratic public ownership. • Cut military spending to average European levels, switch military R&D and production to meeting social needs and scrap plans to replace Trident with a new nuclear weapons system. • Oppose all steps towards a military, monopoly capitalist United States of Europe including an EU constitution, the EU services directive and EU labour law reform. • Repeal all anti-trade union, anti-democratic and racist immigration laws with full employment rights and trade union participation for migrant workers. • Strengthen the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly and restore powers and resources to local government. • Abolish the House of Lords, break up the media monopolies, scrap plans for ID cards and bring the police and intelligence services under democratic control. • Cancel all Third World debt, promote genuine trade-and-aid policies and oppose the GATS plan to privatise public services across the world. All pretty reasonable stuff, although further blanket wealth increases for pensioners without means testing first doesn't sound great to me. Have you chosen the key policies of The Communist party that aren't actually 100% Communist? If so, well done. I don't see any collectivisation of industry, extension of state surveillance, promotion of state sponsored media, 5 year plans and lynching of the bourgeoisie..... Which of the policies you've quoted do you find odious? I note Nick's point earlier about the debate-splitting nature of Trident, so what about the others? Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)
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Mr_Gristle

In the land of Whelk Eaters 20 Oct 16 2.08pm